> A post from BeeSource goes: Allen Dick is a retired commercial beekeeper who used to run 4000+ colonies. He has INTENTIONALLY put AFB infected combs into healthy hives. www.honeybeeworld.com . Can you tell me where you write about this? I can't find it.

Pete dropped me a line, so I thought I'd come by and comment. I don't often post here since I do not like to have my comments edited afterwards to say what others would say, or find acceptable, but I will give it a shot.

My diary goes back a decade, and things have changed a lot over that time. So have we all. What was once accepted is now looked at in a different way. PPM were measurable and 1 PPM was considered vanishingly small, and now we look a 1/2 PPB and wonder if it might have effects.

Routine prophylactic medication and chemical treatment was the accepted way to deal with problems like AFB and mites, particularly in commercial outfits such as I was running at the time. Now, we are into IPM and improvements in genetics are providing protection as well.

What is appropriate in a migratory commercial operation is not necessarily applicable or appropriate for a small, stationary operation.

So, I guess my answer to many of these questions is "It depends".

I don't think I actually wrote what was in the the above quote in so many words, but to give the idea context, I will point out that I often say that I did not worry about the odd cell of AFB back when I was commercial or worry about mixing in the frames from hives which were in hives that had shown breakdown. I never scorched or disinfected boxes or floors and lids.

At the time I was using oxytet (OTC), and before that, sulfa as a prophylactic treatment in spring and fall.

At one time I even intentionally purchased infected equipment and cleared it up with OTC. During and after that time, I saw, maybe 3 to 4% AFB, tapering down to effectively zero over time.

After I retired, I quit medicating proactively and saw a few cells occasionally. In the Kona Carniolan descended stock, they did not spread and always cleared up, but in descendants of some Australian Italian packages I had, the AFB became a problem.

Note: Please do not take this as an indictment of *all* Australian packages, since that was a decade or so ago, and much has changed since. I can't even recall the actual source of the stock. Italians, generally, were noted for being more AFB susceptible, possibly due to larger brood areas.

I was down to three hives a few years back, and split back up to 9 last year, then 35 this year. I was given 3 queens last year by friends who are pretty careful to obtain hygienic and quality stock, but otherwise my stock is descended from whatever I had. Maybe some of that susceptible stock was in there.

This year, for the first time in years, I had three breakdowns. I was away in the spring, and had my wife and daughter do some walk-away splits. I gather we split a hive which proved to have susceptible (degenerate) stock and I later split the stronger half of it using the same technique again.

Thus, I am assuming that the three hives were actually one problem hive, split in three.

For the coming year, I am planning to be more careful in my splitting in order to increase numbers. In recent years, I was just splitting to avoid making honey.

I also plan to inject better stock, however, I have no intention to cull equipment beyond removing any obvious scale, although I understand some stock can thrive in the presence of scale and clean it out without medication.

The main issue is that there is a cost for the bees to do so, since the scale is hard for bees to remove, and a major contamination source, leading to a waste of bee time and energy at a time of year when all effort should go into building up. It is much easier for me to remove the scale for them.

I am assured by some who know these things that some, like the Primorsky (AKA "Russian") can manage quite well without meds, and I intend to be sure to obtain some queens or cells of a stock with superior resistance to brood disease. I have not decided which stock yet, and my decision will partially depend on what friends decide due to the convenience factor. Recommendations are welcome.

Although walk-away splits are great for a quick split in the short run, over time, if it is the sole method used, the stock is likely to lose resistance degenerate) unless inspected and selected. This is not a problem where prophylactic treatments are routine, but is a problem in a chemical-free regime.

The walk-away method, while quick for the beekeeper, is also a slower way to build up than methods using mated queens or quality cells.

The number of successive splits possible is much higher using more intensive management.

While walk-away splits do not require beekeeping skills or examination of frames, the other methods do, and at this point, I plan to do at least one frame by frame inspection to ensure that the AFB is not re-emerging and the stock is able to handle it.

So, there you have it. A true story you likely won't hear elsewhere, and which causes apoplexy in some doctrinaire bee inspectors. (Worked for me unexpectedly one night at EAS when I innocently related my tale in a meeting).

I have been pushing for more and better access in Canada to some of the hygienic and disease/mite resistant stock and it is surprising how a small, steady pressure can result in huge changes over time. More and more people are picking up the refrain and more and more people are realizing that there are bees out there that can resist the scourges and produce well.

Net of costs and effort, these stocks can provide superior returns to the beekeeper and less worry. Of course, the price of security is eternal vigilance and monitoring is important. Some interventions may still be required, but occasionally and topically, rather that generally and routinely.

The one problem with using genetics instead of drugs, barring cloning, is that there is always variability and some individuals as a percentage will prove susceptible, scaring the beekeeper and maintaining a reservoir of the disease or pest.

A different mindset and set of tolerances is required. With chemicals applied properly, 100 out of 100 results will be roughly identical. With genetics, at this point, some number less than 100 will always be observed over time.

Would I deliberately insert scale into my hives now? No.

Would I go ahead and use the equipment and brood frames of feed from an infected hive? Yes, but I would not advise it for those with limited experience or bees which are not known to be resistant.

Don't try this at home, kids.

I have been glancing over this thread and have a few comments:

* The Diamond V yeast motioned will IMO not be a good yeast for bees no matter what you do. It has a very low protein level and consequently can be assumed to have -- in all likelihood -- a high level of non-nutrients or anti-nutrients. Best to buy the yeast from a beekeeper or bee supply, not an animal feed store. Farm animals and chickens have entirely different needs from insects.

* Suitable yeasts have typical protein levels well over 40%. Make sure the supplies are fresh. Do not use flours more than a few months old.

* The reason for seeking high protein levels in yeasts and flours is that protein is the major ingredient required and a high protein level means less of all the other things we do not need, and which can depending on amount, be harmful or just useless filer like fibre, ash, esters, non-digestible sugars, starches, etc.

* Protein level in the finished product is not as meaningful if we use high protein ingredients, since the dilutants are ones we add and know to bee nutrients like sucrose or glucose/fructose and water.

* Oils, including essential ones can be toxic when fed in more than low amounts. One important oil popularly used has been shown to be toxic when present in amounts over over 2%. Oils also become rancid quickly and become toxic if the supplement is not used immediately.

* The idea that 20% protein levels in supplements are better than lower levels comes from pollen studies where lower protein pollens were found to be much less effective bee food than higher protein pollens. This stands to reason in pollens, since the lower the protein percentage, the more non-protein (and probably non-nutrient or anti-nutrient) components need be consumed to get the required absolute amount of protein. These non-protein components may, worst case, be toxic and best case, a filler.

* In supplements, the non-protein ingredients (beyond whatever rides along in the yeasts or flours) is sugar or water and we know these are nutrients which bees will be consuming anyhow, not junk in the diet.

* Therefore, in supplements, the percentage of protein in the final mix is more an indication of value for money than anything else. Example: A 20% mix at $ 2.00 per pound should compare to a 15% mix at $1.50 per pound in efficacy, assuming that each has the same profile of non-protein ingredients and the water and sugar levels account for the difference. Keep in mind though that sugar is not free, so maybe the 15% mix should be valued up at $1.75, say.

* In Florida, I spent time recently with several beekeepers and a bee nutrition expert of note. Interestingly, they are using a high sugar patty to encourage fast consumption due to hive beetle. The mix is 80% sugar and 20% yeast, plus whatever water is needed. They are quite happy with this.

* I also spoke to Hack last summer at EAS and he sent me his formula with permission to post it. For those not on BEE-L, here it is. This is not a recommendation.

Hack's Protein Patty Recipe

1. 125 lbs. Sugar (Add water and keep wet.
Should be a little thicker than pancake batter.)
2. Add either 3 cups citric acid or 4 quarts of lemon
juice, (this is to put the ph at 4 ½ to 5)
3. Add 1 cup Honey Bee Healthy (optional , but we prefer)
4. Add ½ bag Vitamins & Electrolytes (we use Russell’s)
(2 oz. worth)
5. Add 10 lbs. pollen (optional)
(keep the mix wet)
6. Mix in 25 lbs. of Inedible Dries eggs
7. Add 3 ½ cups Canola Oil
8. Mix in 24 lbs. (2 gallons) Honey
9. Finish by adding 50 lbs. Brewtech Brewers Yeast and water until it has the consistency you desire.