Oooops

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Allen Dick
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Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 11th, 2020, 2:08 pm

I encountered some last-minute issues and in my rush I accidentally left my laptop in Mexico. My diary software is on that laptop so until I get it back sometime late next week my only access is via this forum.

I left Mexico Wednesday and flew to Houston on United then on to Seattle where I stayed overnight at a Motel 6. The motel had promised me a shuttle in writing but it turned out they didn't have one and I wound up taking Uber.

The next morning I flew to Vancouver and went through customs. I was advised that I must quarantine for 14 days, as I already knew and asked my plans. I explained I would be quarantining on a boat and sailing around the Salish Sea and that was fine.

Next, I spent two hours in the airport and then boarded my flight to Victoria.

Omar met me at the airport with a van and drove me to Port Sidney Marina where I boarded a boat and settled in. I went to bed early

Friday.
I woke up feeling really jet-lagged and made up a grocery list. Groceries were delivered in the afternoon and I realized I had bought far too much seeing as I don't know exactly what's coming up in the next two weeks. I'd also forgot and how expensive food is here on Vancouver island. Fortunately much of what I bought is dried food or canned and I'll use up the fresh food before too long.

It turns out that Magic Moments is still not repaired so I spent time chasing down the part and learned it is being air freighted in and was supposed to appear sometime late Friday. Ben promises to install it Monday and Tuesday. He says it's a day's work for two men.

I asked when the boat can be in the water and he said Wednesday but MM needs to be in Powell River a hundred miles away for clients to board on Thursday night so that will be a bit of a stretch. That is seventeen hours of motoring.

I did that trip once before when I first bought this boat with the same kind of timeline so I know I can do it if I leave Wednesday morning.

I thought a while and then contacted the marina in Mexico and ask them to retrieve and express me my computer because it is my entertainment for the next 14 days. Unfortunately, I did not leave a key hidden this time because workers will be disassembling the sails and the dodger and bimini.

I was very tired and went to bed early.

Saturday
I woke up feeling really jet lagged and wondered if I'm coming down with a/THE virus but then I realized it's probably just lack of coffee. I haven't had coffee since I got here and I usually drink a pot in the morning and then a cup or two in the late afternoon.

Coffee came with my grocery order but the stove on this boat turns out not to work due to a leak in the propane system that triggers the safety and won't allow it to turn on so I did not have coffee yesterday at all.

This morning, Omar brought me an electric kettle and after four cups of Starbucks coffee I'm my normal self.

So here I am, self isolating again and being careful not to get close to other people. I'll be moving to a different boat but staying isolated all the while. I really don't know what the risk is if any but I must respect the regulations and some people are really worried about the virus. There isn't much in BC so I want to help keep it that way. As much as I have watched this whole epidemic from the start I can't really claim to understand it or know what's best. I think that puts me in the company of all the experts because I don't think they know either. Whatever they're doing here in BC seems to work for them so I'm doing my best to fit in.

Before I came back to Canada I did make a point of phoning to consult the local RCMP about what was permissible and have been advised that sailing around in a boat is perfectly acceptable as a way to self isolate as long as I am careful not to make close contact with other people.

There appears to be a great deal of inconsistency in the rules and how they are applied however I do understand the intent behind them and feel obliged to protect other people from the risks whether they are real or imagined

I found it interesting that after leaving the airplane and going through customs I was free to wander through the airport and have lunch and then go to the boarding lounge and sit and board the next airplane with no restraints but then on arrival required to lock myself down. I suppose it's very difficult 2 develop a regime that works in every case because Canadians have a right to return home however only a few major airports now receive international flights meaning that people must then take a domestic flight to reach their destination unless they happen to live in one of those few major cities.

Right about now I'm wondering if I was crazy to come to British Columbia and not go back to Alberta where I could be mowing my grass wandering around in my garden working on my furnace and generally living my normal life instead of being cooped up on a boat. I've been promised lots of teaching and skipper work when my quarantine is over and deliveries while in quarantine however and that was the incentive to come here

Theafternoon went by quickly and I am settling in. I managed to get the stove working so that is a bonus.
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Countryboy
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Countryboy » July 12th, 2020, 9:53 am

I wondered what had happened to you. Good to hear it is nothing major.
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 12th, 2020, 6:46 pm

Yup. I'm still around.

I'm at the point where I have no understanding of this virus or the social responses at all.

I've heard and seen so many conflicting so-called facts and opinions that I am at a total loss.

I find myself in quarantine on an island with only three known cases. I'm signed up for 14 days of imprisonment basically although there may be some latitude and I'm checking to find out how much there is.

In a place where there are only three known cases I can understand extreme caution. I'm not worried personally but I'd hate to start an outbreak.

This end of Vancouver Island is known for being populated by the newlywed and nearly dead so with so many old folks people are very wary.

It's funny. How I feel about this is different better from how I felt on Mexico, Texas, and Seattle.

Jose sent me this.
Hi Allen,

I know we are all suffering virus fatigue, more than the virus, but once in a while I find intriguing reports. This one from one of the cruise ships suggests to me that there could be a slow burn epidemic driven by asymptomatics, producing more asymptomatics, which are likely missed by the "tests" unless they happen to sample them at the time when their "Cp" values are low. A lot of interesting info in the supplementary appendix.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2013020

Enjoy the change...

Jose
Here are some interesting articles.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... t-ugh.html

https://theconversation.com/how-deadly- ... ion-142253

http://nationalpost.com/news/in-canada- ... he-numbers

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/off ... g-critical

https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... 1029318560#

It looks as if I just got out of the Baja in time.
https://www.infobae.com/america/mexico/ ... -covid-19/
Sounds as if the hospitals are filling up so I'm glad I'm not there to make things worse and the case that I might get it.

I'm realizing now however did I may have made a strategic error relying on Colin's ideas. I should rather have flown to Alberta and spent time on my property there doing things that need doing and then flying out here at the end of my quarantine.

Oh well. I count myself lucky regardless. So far, even in quarantine, life is never dull and I figure everything happens for a reason. I'm waiting to see what it is.

We'll see how I feel in eleven more days.

This is a very interesting article. Read it and see why I am confused. Frankly it corresponds to what I have thought but I'm no expert.

Coronavirus: Why everyone was wrong
The immune response to the virus is stronger than everyone thought

https://medium.com/@vernunftundrichtigk ... e6db5ba809

But then there is this
Getting Covid-19 twice: Why I think my patient was reinfected - Vox
https://www.vox.com/2020/7/12/21321653/ ... d-immunity
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Bob Nelson
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Bob Nelson » July 12th, 2020, 9:23 pm

Glad to hear you made your trip. Missed the note on your laptop but caught up after catching it on reread. Good luck with the repairs and isolation.

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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Countryboy » July 13th, 2020, 6:05 am

I'm realizing now however did I may have made a strategic error relying on Colin's ideas. I should rather have flown to Alberta and spent time on my property there doing things that need doing and then flying out here at the end of my quarantine.
Are you allowed to go to Alberta now, and spend the remainder of your quarantine there?

My cousin's household caught the Covid-19. (I haven't been told how they caught it. I'm assuming it was a doctor's visit, but I'm speculating.)
My cousin Paul and his wife Danielle are unable to have children. They have adopted 3 boys. Justin is 22 or 23, autistic, mentally retarded, and has health issues. John is 14...not the brightest bulb in the box, but otherwise normal. Jackson is probably 12...he's diabetic and has an insulin pod glued to his arm to give him regular insulin.
My cousin's wife is around 45, close to 6 feet tall, and morbidly obese. She had the stomach surgery a couple years ago. I'm guessing she used to weigh 450-500 pounds...I'm guessing she is probably 300-350 now.

Danielle has been posting updates on Facebook.

June 26 - I feel crappy, oh so crappy. Headache, snotty, coughing up icky stuff.

June 29 - Day 6 of feeling like I go run over by a bus...

July 1 - Well Justin and I have been sick for over a week, with headaches, body aches, sinus congestion and drainage, and extreme exhaustion. Only low grade temp. Now both john and Jackson are showing signs of the same thing.

July 3 - Well its official.....test positive.

July 7 - My reward for finally feeling better? A mountain of laundry, a house that looks like a tornado rolled through it, and a mountain of dishes to wash.....I'm feeling the need for a nap already.

July 8 - Well, looks like quarantine just got extended another 10 to 14 days. Now Jackson's down with the same symptoms. At least we'll all have had it and hopefully be done with this crap. Paul's still healthy and going to work everyday.

July 10 - Today has been an emotionally rough day. I've been sick and stuck in this house for well over 2 weeks, and it's really getting to me. John and I are covid free now, but we have to wait for Jackson's to clear before we can really go anyplace or visit anyone. That wont be until mid next week. Even short trips to local stores don't really help. And I'm sure no one will be interested in us visiting, even then.
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 7:51 am

Very interesting report. Thanks. Seems being morbidly obese is not a death sentence after all. The more I read the less I understand.

As for my situation, as I understand it, I cannot leave this boat without permission. From whom I am not exactly sure.

Last night I found a contact number to call to clarify my position because actually I'm a delivery captain and that's the reason that I came back here rather than Alberta so I'll call and find out today.

Actually this lockup isn't too bad so far other than the fact that this boat has big windows and could be a greenhouse if it gets really warm and sunny. I've been jet-lagged and slept a lot but now am more perky and my opinion may change. We'll see.

There are a lot of things I can do to keep myself occupied including working on my Spanish which I've sort of neglected although living in La Paz I was using it a lot and found I was quite amazed at how much I know and how much I don't know.

The challenges presented by this virus remind me of when tracheal mites first appeared and then, later, varroa.

Because all these things are difficult to detect and the direct and indirect effects are not fully understood we saw and see a wide range of responses and opinions, all firmly held and enunciated as truth.

Those responses serve mostly to outline how differently people think. Some people are very risk-averse and other people are risk-seeking. Some think in shades of grey, degrees of probability and certainty, and many dimensions. Others think in black and white and value rumour over evidence.

Some wish to control others with draconian regulation and enforcement and some believe that people should govern themselves with common sense, cooperation, and minimum interference by governments.

Here is something interesting:

National Post: Florida sets one-day record with over 15,000 new COVID cases, more than most countries
http://nationalpost.com/news/world/flor ... -countries

Buried in the article is this:
"Florida reported a record amount of testing, with nearly 143,000 results announced on Sunday compared with an average of 68,000 for the prior seven days."

Hmm. Of course they have a record number of "cases" . The more you look the more you'll find.
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by BadBeeKeeper » July 13th, 2020, 10:29 am

Allen Dick wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 7:51 am
Very interesting report. Thanks. Seems being morbidly obese is not a death sentence after all. The more I read the less I understand....

Hmm. Of course they have a record number of "cases" . The more you look the more you'll find.
Of course, the more you look the more you find. If you don't look for varroa, you won't find any...but they will kill your hives just the same. Rather than looking simply at the 'number of cases', you also have to look at the data of positivity rates when testing. Here in ME, I think that the positivity rate is a bit under two percent...but in some other places it is running up to 15-25%.

When testing for varroa, you know that you are only looking at a small picture of the actual infestation- for all of those that you can actually see, you know that there is some greater number i the background. I am probably off, but I estimate that for every positive case identified there are ten cases in the background that are asymptomatic or only mildly symptomatic and are not identified and enumerated.

Asymptomatic transmission is no longer in question, and similar to varroa the numbers rise in a geometric progression. If it isn't knocked down it will eventually overwhelm the population beyond the ability to help them.

One of the main issues is the variation in the ways in which it affects people. While being 'morbidly obese' is not a guarantee of death, it makes death a greater possibility, and increases the probability of a poorer outcome. Contrary to what was initially said, even younger people are beginning to experience worse outcomes than they expected. Younger people are requiring more care, some are requiring limbs to be amputated due to blood clots, and some are dying even when they didn't expect to, after suddenly taking a turn for the worse.

The more co-morbidities one has, the greater the probability that one will experience an extremely adverse outcome. I would estimate that at least one-third of the US population is at risk of severe illness, permanent disability and/or death.

Whether it's war, or business, or beekeeping, this is about risk management. If we do not do everything we can to keep it under control and minimize the rate of infection, the results will be similar to the 'Spanish Flu' epidemic of 100 years ago. In some states here, we already have hospitals that are overloaded and are now turning away patients. Morgues are becoming overloaded and bodies are being stored in refrigerated trucks. Much of this, in my opinion, is due to political pressure to 'open the economy' and our talking-head twit 'leaders' not only ignoring the medical and scientific information and advice from the people we pay to tell us such things, but actually saying and doing things that are completely contrary to the expert advice.

Politics should have no part in this. This is not a political situation, this disease doesn't care what anyone's politics are- it is a mindless bug with but one natural directive- to replicate itself and spread as far and as fast as it can.

Frankly, though I voted for Trump/Pence, the only thing that keeps me from wishing that they catch CoViD and die is the fact that Pelosi would be next in line for succession. Stupid people are paying attention to the stupid things that they say, and are making this whole mess worse.

Cities are like beehives, and if we don't get this knocked back soon there is going to be a whole lot of disease and death and not just from 'Rona. People are going to start dying from a lot of other things, because the medical facilities are going to be overloaded and unable to provide the treatment that might have saved them.

I am sooooooooo glad that I moved out here to the willywhacks where there aren't a whole lot of people packed in together. It is much easier to manage my risk by hiding out here in the country where I can't see any other houses from my house, with my cabinets and shelves loaded up with supplies, only rarely needing to venture out...and not running into many people when I do.

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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 11:23 am

Well, maybe leaving my computer behind was a good thing because we're getting a discussion going here.

What is really interesting is that I am getting almost exactly opposing viewpoints from very intelligent people with apparent facts to back them up.

As I say this is why I am so confused personally. I understand both sides.

My personal policy has been to stay out of the way and not go looking for trouble but at the same time not be paranoid about it because for all I know I'm one of the people whose immune or maybe I've already had it. Also, if I die I've had a good run and I'm past my best before date.

I could point out that the severe secondary effects and amputations are only evident in an extremely small and almost disappearing percentage of actual hospitalizations in comparison to the total cases but that is no consolation if you happen to be the one to draw the short straw.

People are absolutely horrible at figuring out odds and that's why lotteries exist. I think if you polled people to see who buys lottery tickets and who does not you would find it is the same people who don't who say this bug no big deal and those who do who think they might get the bug and suffer severe consequences.

Some people focus on the most unlikely outcome and make decisions on that and others say "full speed ahead and damn the torpedos". Both strategies work often enough that both perspectives have survived over time and are well represented in our populations. I'm a mix of both.

Fascinating.

There is no way of saying who is right. That is just how people are.
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 11:51 am

Jose sends this by email.
----
Thinking there is a growing body of evidence accumulating that "asymptomatics" are not very infective, or infective for a short period or at least not important drivers of the really serious part of the disease (the exposure and critical doses of virus of older and immuno-compromised people). Somehow everyone got fixated on "cases" and keeping those down. It is a very simplistic model, sort of like particle diffusion in a high school science project. And somehow keeping the particles from spreading or blocking them with things like masks is the way to keep people healthy. Sadly the mask thing has become a political statement. If you wear masks, you are part of the responsible crowd, if you don't your are an ignorant "Trump person". When probably the only true benefit of a mask is for highly infective coughers in close quarters to stop exposing vulnerable people with high doses.

That commentary you posted from the German retired immunologist was very good at pointing out possible weaknesses in the current arguments for lockdowns, masks, etc.
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 12:07 pm

One other thing did I know this is that the real number we should be looking at is so-called excess deaths. There have been bumps but for the most part last I looked the figures were quite level which suggests that covid has being cannibalizing the numbers for other mortalities.

In other words deaths that might have been ascribed to other things are now ascribed to covid and also covid is knocking off people who might have been taking down shortly by other morbidities.

We can also never discount the effect of the bounty that is placed on reporting covidt deaths.

So I'll be interested to see what the latest excess death numbers are because they will tell the real tale. I've heard it said that the covid deaths and injuries are about on a par with similar trauma and death caused by automobile traffic. Does anyone know if that's true?

Here are the excess deaths data:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covi ... deaths.htm
I haven't really spent a lot of time analyzing it (a little difficult on a phone) but there does appear to be a small increase over the historical but not nearly as large as one would expect from the noise the media is making.

Comments?
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 12:47 pm

This is why I wonder...

"And after a week of nightmare headlines about Florida, and about 70,000 new cases (aka positive tests), hospitals have a grand total of 130 more patients (~2.5%) in ICU beds statewide than last Sunday. Can’t make it up. 45 deaths today, in a state with 20 million people".
https://t.co/dGahbynrsl
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Countryboy » July 13th, 2020, 2:16 pm

I haven't dug into it very far, but here are some interesting things to look at. I live in Ohio, so I tend to look at Ohio data. As of right now, Ohio has had 3,069 deaths attributed to Covid-19.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/ohio/ohio.htm
In 2017...
28K deaths due to heart disease
25.6K cancer
9K accidents
7K Lower Respiratory Diseases (separate from flu/pneumonia)
6K stroke
5K Alzheimer's
3.7K Diabetes
2.2K Flu/Pneumonia
2.2K Kidney Disease
2K Septicemia

https://coronavirus.ohio.gov/wps/portal ... dashboards has some interesting info when you look at the Current Trends and Key Metrics.
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 4:06 pm

That sorta puts things in perspective doesn't it. None of us are here forever no matter how we pretend.
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Countryboy » July 13th, 2020, 4:39 pm

I talked to my cousin's wife. They think Paul brought Covid home from work, and that he is asymptomatic. A coworker in his department was a confirmed case of Covid.

The only person in the house who has been tested is John, but the health department is aware of everyone else in the house who has been sick. The health department says that as long as Paul wears a mask, he is ok to go to work. (Where I work, if you are exposed to a suspected case of Covid, you have to stay home for 2 weeks. If someone in your house gets it, you have to stay home for 2 weeks after their symptoms go away.)

The only thing different about Paul than everyone else in the house is that Paul has type O blood.

A lot of ruckus has been made about minorities and Covid. Ohio has some interesting data.
General population. White - 82% Black 14%
Covid-19 Cases White - 47% Black - 26%
Deaths White - 77% Black - 19%

What this tells me...
Covid is spreading like wildfire in big cities, in black communities. Why? Who knows. (There has also been a push for more testing of minorities, which might explain the larger number of black cases...or like my cousin's family...one positive test of a white person in a household, and the health department doesn't test anyone else in the household, even though they are sick or asymptomatic...which keeps numbers of white cases lower. Figures lie, and liars figure.)
Whites are 47% of cases, but 77% of deaths. This defeats the argument that minorities are disproportionately impacted by Covid. Whites are overrepresented in deaths. (Either blacks are getting a much better standard of medical care, or else Covid is much more lethal to old whites...or maybe the only old people being exposed to Covid are old white people.) I don't know what nursing home demographics are, but from personal observation, they are primarily white, which may be why you see so many white deaths. (Nursing homes is where the bulk of the mortalities come from.)
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by BadBeeKeeper » July 13th, 2020, 6:10 pm

Allen Dick wrote:
July 13th, 2020, 11:51 am
Jose sends this by email.
----
Thinking there is a growing body of evidence accumulating that "asymptomatics" are not very infective, or infective for a short period or at least not important drivers of the really serious part of the disease (the exposure and critical doses of virus of older and immuno-compromised people). Somehow everyone got fixated on "cases" and keeping those down. It is a very simplistic model, sort of like particle diffusion in a high school science project. And somehow keeping the particles from spreading or blocking them with things like masks is the way to keep people healthy. Sadly the mask thing has become a political statement. If you wear masks, you are part of the responsible crowd, if you don't your are an ignorant "Trump person". When probably the only true benefit of a mask is for highly infective coughers in close quarters to stop exposing vulnerable people with high doses.
This. is. not. true.

One incident, here in one of the northern counties in ME, which previously had less than a handful of cases- a single asymptomatic individual was involved in an event which required the response of a cop and an ambulance crew. The individual was transported to a local hospital. At the local hospital it was determined that the individual required surgery that they were unable to provide.

A second ambulance crew was called to transport the patient to a larger hospital that could provide the surgery. The patient was tested for CoViD prior to surgery and found to be infected. Subsequently, as a direct result of that interaction, the cop, both ambulance crews, and six other people became infected, for a total of 11 other people infected as a consequence (including members of the families of the first responders, who picked it up from them).

These individuals are now quarantined and the final outcomes are not yet known.

Let's say that one asymptomatic person spreads it to ten other people (for ease of math, which I suck at), and those ten spread it to ten each, now it's 100 infections. Another round and it's 1,000 infections, then 10,000. Odds are, that at least some of them are going to require acute care, and some will not survive.

There is no doubt that the wearing of a mask by an infected person significantly significantly reduces that person's ability to infect others- this is science that has been known for more than 100 years.

Lacking symptoms, none of us can really know for sure that we are not infected. Therefore, lacking the ability to know that we are not infected, it only makes sense that we all wear a mask in order to inhibit the spread of infection. There is absolutely no doubt that some people *are* infected, and that they are spreading it.

Wearing a mask causes no harm to the wearer. But there is also no doubt that some people who become infected *will* die as a result. While older people are statistically more likely to experience the worst outcomes, as are people with co-morbidities, there are also no guarantees that younger and [seemingly] otherwise 'healthy' will not also suffer acute illness, long-term disability and death.

Why then, is there such opposition to performing a harmless action that will save the lives of others? Is it not common sense, and the morally appropriate thing to do?

It would be something different, if illness and death came only to those who refuse to wear masks. If that were the case, then I would say "By all means, go without a mask, take your chances and see if you can win a Darwin Award."

But, the unfortunate odds are, that the bulk of the people with this attitude of "I refuse to wear a mask" will probably survive when they become infected (by others who also refuse to wear a mask), while some number of them will subsequently infect victims who will not survive.

These deaths are unnecessary, and could have been/would be prevented by a harmless act. Refusing to wear a mask is, in the bulk of cases, some combination of vanity/ignorance/stupidity. Wearing a mask is the polite and responsible thing to do, it indicates some level of concern for the well-being of ones fellow citizens.

Not wearing a mask, on the other hand, is basically a statement that says "Eff you, I don't care who I kill."

I am 'pretty sure' that I am not infected, but I wear a mask around others because I cannot guarantee that I am not. I have at least four co-morbidities that all but guarantee a poor outcome for me, and my wife has at least three. I would appreciate it if other people showed as much concern for my welfare as I do for theirs. But a lot don't, and I try to avoid them as much as possible...given the increase in gun sales recently, I would suggest that wearing a mask might help to prevent one from acquiring a case of lead poisoning...

Interesting factoid- it has been legally determined (in the US) that CoViD meets the definition of a 'biological agent' and negligent or intentional dispersal is a crime subject to arrest...and a number of people *have* been arrested and so charged...

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Countryboy
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Countryboy » July 13th, 2020, 6:43 pm

Wearing a mask causes no harm to the wearer.
This. is. not. true.

Wearing masks cause serious safety issues in a work environment because glasses keep fogging up and people can't see.
So far, no one has died from an injury caused by not being able to see, but there have been minor hand injuries.

Is it not common sense, and the morally appropriate thing to do?
Morally appropriate?

Why is it morally appropriate to allow others to live off welfare funded by my taxes?

Why is it morally appropriate to allow old people to get Social Security checks, which are a Ponzi scheme using my money?

Why is it morally appropriate to allow old people to suffer in nursing homes, instead of letting the old man's friend help them out?

It is NOT morally appropriate to expect me to be responsible for the health of my neighbor.

Is it morally appropriate for people to live a lifestyle which makes them more likely to die of Covid? It seems to target people who have comorbidities which result from a lifetime of bad decisions.

Don't insult me by suggesting I should do ANYTHING because it is morally appropriate. It's not morally appropriate to want me to suggest that I should do something because it is "morally appropriate."

Your morals are not mine, and you can stick your morals where the sun don't shine.
B. Farmer Honey
Central Ohio

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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 6:51 pm

Oh my! I was hoping this wouldn't happen.

I noticed a little bit of emotion was creeping in here but let's let's stay friends, okay?

As I say this reminds me of when the mites first came into beekeeping in North America. The facts were very hard to come by and everyone had an opinion. People blamed one another for something that is really nobody's fault unless we want to go back to the source and even in that case facts are hard to come by.

I really don't want to have to moderate this and I'd like everybody to stay friendly

I value everybody's opinion and understand everybody feels differently about this and some people are facing losses of people near and dear to them or fear for their own lives. Personally I don't want to get sick or make anyone sick and I'm not particularly eager to die but I know these things happen and I guess you might say I'm good with that. We all have our time here and when it's up its up. But that's just me.

As for the facts, the world is big enough that there are examples of just about every extreme and it's difficult to determine whether what happens in one specific circumstance applies generally or even if it was properly chronicled. Reports are very often erroneous and conclusions may not be correct.

Some of us look at all the various reports and try to make sense of them and frankly as I have said several times I can't make any sense out of this at all.

I wear a mask when it is indicated but I find it makes me clumsy and disoriented so I don't particularly like it. Just the same it's like wearing clothes. If you don't do it you get into trouble.

I wonder when it's ever going to end or how humans ever managed to live this long without wearing masks through flu season.

Some time back I posted an article about the experience the Algonquins went through, suffering through a series of epidemics that killed as much as 90% of their populations at times.

We are nowhere near that at present with a death rate depending on who's counting of something below 1% of recorded cases and a very small percentage of the population at large.

It's not over yet and it's caused a great deal of grief but so far I think we should consider ourselves fortunate and be considerate of others both in terms of their health and their opinions.

No man is an island.
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Monday July 13th

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 7:17 pm

I worked on my Spanish a bit again last night and again this morning.

As mentioned previously Colin wants me to deliver a boat to Powell River and that is actually why I came here in the first place. Looking at the criteria and regulations it appears that I am actually exempt from the requirement to quarantine being a marine vessel crew and also the equivalent of a truck driver.

Just the same I thought I should get a ruling on this because I don't want to be found offside so I called up the provincial authorities who referred me to the federal authorities.

I called the federal number and was subjected to a long message that was not directly relevant to my situation and finally was able to select an option to speak to a human. After a long wait on hold which thankfully subjected to me to some very nice classical music rather than the usual distorted pseudo -music I got to speak to a very nice lady.

We spoke a while and she pretty much agreed with me that that everything I'm doing is fine except was wondering about the idea that I would return to this base in a vehicle even if I didn't stop along the way, and said please hold while she consulted her supervisors. After a few more minutes on hold and at exactly five o'clock my call was dropped.

Governments. So am I going to go through this all again or just assume all is well?

My plan keeps me isolated and even if I am exempt that is a good thing
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To Add to the Confusion

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 13th, 2020, 8:19 pm

As I have pointed out before the seen to be many perspectives and some are diametrically opposite and equally certain in their positions and able to present 'facts' to buttress their argument.

Sometimes the 'facts' are robust and sometimes obtained from small samples. Sometimes the facts are obtained from respected sources and sometimes mere anecdotes.

One thing that has become very apparent in recent years is that nobody is without bias.

Which if any should one believe? It is IMO impossible to say anymore.

Anyhow, here are some articles that I find of interest. If you are like me you'll take all of them with a grain of salt.,,,,🙄

http://www.zerohedge.com/political/scie ... -19-may-be

http://www.zerohedge.com/markets/taleb- ... -necessity

http://www.zerohedge.com/political/covi ... ses-us-all

http://www.zerohedge.com/political/more ... art-damage

http://www.zerohedge.com/personal-finan ... ace-impact
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
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Countryboy
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Re: Oooops

Unread post by Countryboy » July 14th, 2020, 5:43 am

Oh my! I was hoping this wouldn't happen.

I noticed a little bit of emotion was creeping in here but let's let's stay friends, okay?
You missed the point I was making. Where do we draw the line? "Morally appropriate" quickly becomes a very slippery slope.

It's not morally appropriate to get fat/obese, get divorced, be homosexual, etc. Heck, it's not morally appropriate to be a liberal - socialism killed tens of millions of people in the 20th century.

The next thing you know, we'll be rounding up Jews and sending them to concentration camps.
B. Farmer Honey
Central Ohio

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