How do you run your hives?

General Discussion of Diary Posts and Questions on Beekeeping Matters
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illuminateddan
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How do you run your hives?

Unread post by illuminateddan » June 15th, 2017, 7:48 am

Hi folks,

My name is Dan Cook and I'm a hobby beekeeper and mature-age design student. I'm currently researching beekeeping and how todays modern beekeeping practices effect the beekeeper and the bees for my Honours project. I'm not looking to design the next flow hive or anything like that, just get an understanding of peoples practices and problems.

It would be fantastic if you could spare three or four minutes to let me know a few details about you practice. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me on: d9.cook@connect.qut.edu.au

The questionnaire is here if you would like to help out https://goo.gl/forms/O3c1eb7eWp6FyK6y2

Thank you so much for your time in advance , and if this is not the right place to post this I apologise and will place it properly elsewhere if you could point me in the right direction!

Dan

PS. Keep up the amazing work! :D

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » June 15th, 2017, 6:48 pm

I sent the guy an email.

Hi,
I saw your questionaire from your post on the HoneyBeeWorld.com forum.
Most of the questions are complete nonsense. They are so vague you can't get any useful information. A beekeeper can't give you an honest answer because there is too much variability. For example, you ask how many frames I run in each hive. That's a nonsense question. Why? Because it depends on what time of year it is, and what configuration of boxes I am running. If I have a deep box with 8 frames and a feeder, and I have 5 shallow honey supers, which may have 8 or 9 frames in them, how many frames do I have in a hive? And in winter, if some hives are in a single deep, and others are in a double deep, how many frames do my hives have?
Do I use foundation in my hives? Yes and no. Some frames are foundationless, some frames have wax foundation, some have Duragilt, and some are plastic foundations. See? you can't get any useful information by asking if I use foundation.
Have I ever had an injury from beekeeping other than stings? Define injury? Does smoke in my eyes count? Does twisting my ankle carrying honey supers count? Does a sore back count? Does a burn from a hot smoker count? Do scraped knuckles count? Splinters? Pinched fingers? Cuts and scrapes from briars? See why your question is nonsense? How could anyone keep bees without sustaining some kind of injury other than stings?
Do you modify my hives in any way? What are you talking about? What do you mean by modify?
Do I think the hives Affect (not effect) the colony in any way? Another nonsense question, because it is worthless without you knowing in what way the beekeeper thinks the hive affects the colony. This is a subjective question, and using it in a survey is worthless. You can not gain any actionable information from it.
What factors do I think are important in a hive? Once again, a stupid and worthless question for a survey, since it is a subjective valuation.
If I were to change one thing about beekeeping, what would it be? I'd get rid of all government intervention, and anyone who advocates for any government intervention in beekeeping.
And no, I'm not going to complete your survey. I hope no one else does either.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by illuminateddan » June 29th, 2017, 6:13 pm

Thanks for your response, I'm sorry you feel the questions are worthless and stupid, this has not been the general response from the rest of the community. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, however, simply not filling out the form would have had an equal response, rather than a long rant on why you think you are so undefinable. It's a shame that user responses like this bring down a forums tone and provide barriers to research and education in beekeepers and apiary practice.

I'd like to thank everyone who did take part in the survey, feel free to email me for the summaries of answers.

Dan

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » June 29th, 2017, 8:54 pm

this has not been the general response from the rest of the community.
I find it incredibly unlikely that is true. Most likely, only the beekeepers who bothered to respond (which I suspect to be inexperienced hobbyist/beginners) may think it is a good survey, but I suspect most beekeepers ignored the survey and didn't have the kindness to respond to the nonsense.
It's a shame that user responses like this bring down a forums tone and provide barriers to research and education in beekeepers and apiary practice.
No, I disagree.

I believe it's a shame that folks try to do BS research, and then present it as being something to be proud of.

Barriers to research and education in beekeepers and apiary practice? LOL No, pointing out how flawed a survey is does not create a barrier. Worthless surveys however, do pose a barrier to obtaining any useful information which could benefit beekeepers.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by illuminateddan » June 30th, 2017, 1:19 am

Well what would you ask? Can I also ask what discipline your research background comes from and how you frame your question for product research? Without knowing the research problem or research question, how can you gauge the survey?

What makes this BS research? I'm looking for a demographic and product choice. Your aggressive response is certainly not what I expected from a community that aims to help and inform beekeepers and apiary practice. I don't understand why you are taking this so personally when all I asked was if someone could volunteer 3-4 minutes of their time answering a few questions.

If other beekeepers and experts on this forum think there is no place for this post or line of questions and support CountryBoy's view, please post in this thread and I will happily leave you to it, having discovered that this community is not for the likes of me as a hobby beekeeper with an interest in learning more about apiary practice. There are other forums and communities to learn from.

Again, please post if you have a moment and share CountryBoy's views on my survey. :?:

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » June 30th, 2017, 4:44 am

Well what would you ask?
The question is, why are you asking? What is the end goal you hope to achieve with this information? (And why do you believe you should be the one trying to collect and compile the information?)

If you approach this with the mindset of what questions should be asked, the only thing you can collect is a bunch of useless information. You need to first figure out how your information will be of benefit, and then work backwards to figure out what questions you need to ask to gather information that is relevant and useful.
Can I also ask what discipline your research background comes from and how you frame your question for product research?
I've been a beekeeper for about 12 years, running about 100 hives of my own. I also have experience working for a commercial operation. There is no better discipline than real world experience.

It's wrong of you to ask this question wanting to know about a specific "discipline." Beekeeping is not a discipline, and people who refer to a field of study as a discipline typically try to call things a discipline to cover up their own incompetence and to BS themselves into believing they are somehow more educated than others, when in reality, they typically are idiots who lack common sense. An educated person would be considered by others to be a polymath, but it is unlikely they would ever call themselves that because that would be arrogant.

You have to figure out what product you are trying to produce before you can do product research.

You should also do a cost benefit study on a dollars and cents basis, to determine if this research should even be done. If it's not going to be a financial benefit to you and for the beekeepers who buy your product, then it literally is not worth it.
What makes this BS research? I'm looking for a demographic and product choice.
Without having a good understanding of beekeeping, based upon a very small sampling, selecting primarily inexperienced hobbyist beekeepers, and then you are trying to extrapolate that info to beekeeping as a whole. Because the questions are so vague and ambiguous that the results can be interpreted any way you want them to be, which means they have no value in the real world.
Your aggressive response is certainly not what I expected from a community that aims to help and inform beekeepers and apiary practice.
A community that aims to help and inform beekeepers and apiary practice? The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. (That's politely telling you that a community "that aims to help and inform beekeepers and apiary practice" is probably not a good a thing.)

BTW, beekeepers don't do "apiary practice." That's made up nonsense by college educated idiots.
I don't understand why you are taking this so personally when all I asked was if someone could volunteer 3-4 minutes of their time answering a few questions.
Because I take offense to someone who doesn't understand beekeeping, attempting to compile worthless information, and then has the audacity to insult my intelligence by claiming that they are trying to help me.

I don't want the kind of help you offer. Your approach is common of worthless government workers who try to meddle where they don't belong. You don't understand that the best thing you can do is to stay out of our lives and let beekeepers figure out what works best for them in their area.
There are other forums and communities to learn from.
Those are good places to learn ridiculous BS by wannabe gurus. Lots and lots of theoretical BS, but really short on real world stuff. You want to learn about beekeeping practices and methods? Become a serious beekeeper. Get some skin in the game.
Again, please post if you have a moment and share CountryBoy's views on my survey.
No one has any obligation to respond to your query, nor do I understand why you think people should answer your questions just because you asked. (If you hadn't noticed, I was pointing out that you shouldn't have even been asking these questions in the first place.)

You're approaching this from an invalid fallacy. You're trying to suggest that if no one responds, that invalidates my response. What you fail to understand is human behavior (praxeology) which will tell you that most people will simply ignore your survey since they believe it is a waste of time of that you are being nosy, and most people will ignore this discussion believing it is a waste of time. I'm beginning to believe it is a waste of time too, because I doubt you are bright enough to understand what I am saying. (Stop trying to find a solution to problems that don't exist. When you try to find a solution for other people, you very easily run the risk of becoming an even greater problem. You're just being a nosy, do-gooder.)
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by illuminateddan » June 30th, 2017, 6:01 am

Ok, thank you CountryBoy. I understand that I am not welcome here, so thank you for putting me in my place. I'll leave the beekeeping to the real beekeepers. Apologies to all on this forum who I have offended by asking some questions for a study project with no commercial aims or outcomes.

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Allen Dick » June 30th, 2017, 9:26 am

Actually, you are welcome here. Countryboy does not speak for everyone, and even if he did, I doubt he wanted to drive you off. He is just not very diplomatic sometimes and I think you hit on a nerve. I understand his frustration with attempts by the uninitiated to simplify beekeeping and the unstated assumptions many make.

I applaud and support your attempt to understand beekeeping, but those of us who have been beekeeping a long time and are further down that road know that your task is more complex than it seems at outset. Beekeeping is a very complex and varied. What many assume to be mainstream may be just a local variation. The seven men and an elephant analogy applies here.

I think Brian, in his tactless way was trying to be constructive. I hope you can see it that way, and not take it personally. Perhaps you can find his comments useful and incorporate his thoughts into your work.

"Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler", is a quote attributed to Einstein. Whether he ever said it or not does not matter. It is true.

Please stick around and continue to contribute.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by BadBeeKeeper » July 1st, 2017, 8:05 am

illuminateddan wrote:
June 30th, 2017, 1:19 am
...please post if you have a moment and share CountryBoy's views on my survey. :?:
Frankly, I didn't take the post seriously enough to even bother to look at the survey, it looked suspiciously like a scammer/spammer post- you made the same plea on multiple sites; the phrase "mature-age design student" sounds like the kind of meaningless mumbo-jumbo a scammer/spammer would make up; and the post contained multiple spelling/grammar errors typical of uneducated scammer/spammers rather than an educated college student doing an "Honours project". Your stated 'goal' of "...get an understanding of peoples practices and problems..." seemed so vague as to be worthless, particularly being coupled with your previously stated claim of being a 'hobby beekeeper'- if you were, in fact, already a beekeeper, then you would already have a general understanding of general 'practices and problems'.

To me, your post was entirely unconvincing as to its legitimacy and, even if it *were* legit, it utterly failed to motivate me to even bother to spend the time to *look* at the 'survey' since it did not convey the impression that said 'survey' would be constructed any better or more meaningfully than the post requesting it.

Since your return here, after CB's response, I did have a look at the survey. Knowing how many people are likely to have seen your request, and judging by the number of responses and the quality of them, it would seem that your best resources were similarly unconvinced.

Having just finished a brief excursion into your footprint on the net, it would seem that you are a relatively smart guy, but it does not show in the construction of your initial query. I won't be quite as severe as CB's responses, but based on your further replies here I get the sense that your education and 'common sense' levels are out of balance and you seem a trifle narcissistic. Maybe you should back up and regroup, and try again if you are serious about gaining any useful information.

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by illuminateddan » July 1st, 2017, 6:31 pm

Hi,

Thanks, I can see now that approach for asking for information was not well received and should have been worded differently. I also did not realise that these forums got so many of these kind of requests and they are received badly - a point that I should have investigated by looking through the forum first. To clarify, this survey was just a very small part of my other research which is on the 'thermal impacts of hive manipulation'.

While this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' it's really just documenting and measuring what I and all the participants here know already - that opening a hive releases the environment within and changes the temperature and humidity. What I am trying to document is the empirical figures: how much does it change, how long does it take the bees to recover, what happens to the hive temperature and humidity after a manipulation and how do the bees restore the 'microenvironment'. I am also looking at the role that brood comb and honey comb play in hive temperature stabilisation (which is a lot due to the thermal mass of the honey comb when full).

I did not mean to come across as narcissistic and my questions for CB regarding discipline were meant to find out what academic research discipline his research background was as he was ripping into my research method without all the details, so I wanted to know the angle he was looking at it from. That was pretty defensive post as I have spent a lot of time in the last 2 and a bit years learning about beekeeping and then a pretty intensive four months marrying the current science to the history of beekeeping. I also asked for other opinions as not all members represent an entire forums views, so thought I'd ask.

In regards to your comment of
if you were, in fact, already a beekeeper, then you would already have a general understanding of general 'practices and problems'.
Unfortunately, as you probably already know, in academic papers, theses, essays and such, first hand knowledge must be supported by empirical evidence, hence the survey. I know that langstroth hives are a base standard with a gazillion variations, that I get a sore lower back from lifting a 35kg super thats too near the ground and that I run a 10 frame super because thats what I started with and what my local store sells, but I need to be able to say 'x out of x beekeepers' do this. Even knowing that out of 'x' many views on 'x' many forums, I got 'x' responses is very useful in (in)validating the data.

I have however learnt that in beekeeping forums, a survey is not a valid collection method to get an accurate cross section as the form of the questions will be judged for worthiness and the questioners reputation on the board changes the number and type of people answering - surprisingly valid information from which I shall get paragraphs of recommendations from!

Anyway, having alienated a group on this forum I'd now kind of like to move on if possible and become involved and learn from this community. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Dan

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » July 1st, 2017, 11:16 pm

To clarify, this survey was just a very small part of my other research which is on the 'thermal impacts of hive manipulation'.
Which sounds like an absolute waste of money to research. Ie, completely worthless.
While this sounds like 'mumbo jumbo' it's really just documenting and measuring what I and all the participants here know already - that opening a hive releases the environment within and changes the temperature and humidity. What I am trying to document is the empirical figures: how much does it change, how long does it take the bees to recover, what happens to the hive temperature and humidity after a manipulation and how do the bees restore the 'microenvironment'.
Let's just pretend that bees never build combs and hives in the open air, which amounts to a hive that is always opened.
I did not mean to come across as narcissistic and my questions for CB regarding discipline were meant to find out what academic research discipline his research background was as he was ripping into my research method without all the details, so I wanted to know the angle he was looking at it from.
I'll tell you the angle. I have a VERY dismal view of ANY researcher associated with academia. I have a VERY dismal view of ANY research done by anyone in academia. I believe every single researcher in academia should be fired. I am also 100% opposed to the government providing college loans, which amounts to a subsidy to colleges with tax dollars.

I believe that research should be done by the private sector, without any government subsidies or involvement of any kind.
That was pretty defensive post as I have spent a lot of time in the last 2 and a bit years learning about beekeeping and then a pretty intensive four months marrying the current science to the history of beekeeping.
Are we supposed to be impressed? I'm not. I've known beekeepers who have 10 years of experience, and I know beekeepers who have 6 months experience 20 times over.

I would suggest that you try to divorce current (fake) science from beekeeping if you wish to understand beekeeping.
Unfortunately, as you probably already know, in academic papers, theses, essays and such, first hand knowledge must be supported by empirical evidence, hence the survey.
BS. You have things bass ackwards. In academia, everything is theory. The anecdotal things beekeepers see in the hives are facts.

Figures lie, and liars figure. Surveys are worthless, as data can be manipulated to make things appear to be whatever the survey taker wants. And often, sample sizes are too small to get any realistic information.
I know that langstroth hives are a base standard with a gazillion variations, that I get a sore lower back from lifting a 35kg super thats too near the ground and that I run a 10 frame super because thats what I started with and what my local store sells, but I need to be able to say 'x out of x beekeepers' do this. Even knowing that out of 'x' many views on 'x' many forums, I got 'x' responses is very useful in (in)validating the data.
What makes you think the Langstroth hive is a base standard? It may be here in the US, but in other countries, the Layens hive is quite popular. (I think Russia is supposed to have 10 million beehives, while the US only has 2.5 million. Spain has more hives than the US...another country that has a lot of Layens hives.)
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 4th, 2017, 10:25 am

Interesting discussion. Hope you can get past Brian's obvious disdain for academics, Dan, and continue to defend your position. Although Brian may be the extreme, I think most practical beekeeper really wonder how much of the Bee Science we read and are taught is actual science and how much is BS, and that doubt is reinforced every time we open a hive. Facts are that with a few exceptions, a lot of the useful work (as opposed to make-work) done by the academics and field researchers is instigated by the observations and requests of layman beekeepers. Sometimes those lay people get recognized, but usually they stay in the background.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » July 4th, 2017, 8:29 pm

a lot of the useful work (as opposed to make-work) done by the academics and field researchers is instigated by the observations and requests of layman beekeepers. Sometimes those lay people get recognized, but usually they stay in the background.
A lot of the useful work is done by beekeepers themselves because of their own observations.

Advances in society have not occurred because some academic decided to do something to save the world. Advances in society have occurred because some private individual had a problem or recognized a need, and they used their individual ingenuity to make things better.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 4th, 2017, 10:55 pm

Although there is truth in the above statement, I would say that it does not meet the conditions that would make it logically true. There are enough notable exceptions to disqualify it.

Additionally, are not some so-called academics private individuals? I know quite a few personally and have to say that some at least are innovative and creative people who are very dedicated and have contributed greatly in ways they could not have done outside an institution.

Just saying...
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » July 5th, 2017, 9:11 pm

Additionally, are not some so-called academics private individuals?
They do not act as private individuals. (In some cases, even if they invent something on their own, the university they work for still owns the intellectual property rights.)
I know quite a few personally and have to say that some at least are innovative and creative people who are very dedicated and have contributed greatly in ways they could not have done outside an institution.
If they could not have done it on their own outside an institution, then they are not acting as individuals. Doing something as an individual[s] means you are doing it on your own.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 7th, 2017, 6:23 am

I think we are getting off-track here.

Dan had the idea to create a poll to learn some things about how beekeepers operate and it seems some people thought it was a good idea and went along, but others thought it was an attempt at a fools errand and took exception to his initial attempt.

Me, having written the Green Certificate for the Alberta Government years ago, know for a fact that getting a grasp on beekeeping practices -- Alberta commercial beekeeping in this case -- is a much harder job than anyone would guess going in, but if the type and location of beekeeping is defined and the survey limited to those parameters, the job is not impossible.

If we discourage anyone who starts out on the job, we will never find out what is possible.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Biermann » July 7th, 2017, 10:09 am

Hi, my fingers are itching for a while already to write something to this, but I have restrained myself, till now.

This is free to participate, not a must, so why all the hip?

Let the man (Dan) be.

Cheers, Joerg

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Countryboy » July 7th, 2017, 4:15 pm

This is free to participate, not a must, so why all the hip?
Because folks in academia collect information from a few participants, and then they try to portray it as the entire industry. This is being dishonest. They never stop with just collecting information - they try to influence people to act upon their idiotic ideas and beliefs.

They use this bogus data for BS political activism, and they try to influence policymakers (and public) to support getting government involved in private affairs.

Government has no business getting involved in private industry or private affairs.
Academia has become so corrupted that are just an extension of the government, and work as political apologists.

Also, I do not believe we should ever support ANY academic research that is funded in any way, shape, or form by tax dollars. (Colleges are funded by government funding through college loans in the US.) I believe all research should be self-funded (eliminating worthless research, ie research which will not produce an economic benefit) at best, and at worst completely funded through private donations.

I object to the use of my tax dollars (collected through force from behind the barrel of a gun) being spent on any academic research. No matter how good the intentions of the research sound at first glance, it will yield fruit of the poisonous tree. It is contaminated. The researcher has no skin in the game (not funding it themselves, and no financial stake), and since they are not spending their own money, they can't be trusted not to be wasteful with other people's money.
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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by cgybees » July 8th, 2017, 1:26 am

Allen Dick wrote:
July 4th, 2017, 10:25 am
I think most practical beekeeper really wonder how much of the Bee Science we read and are taught is actual science and how much is BS
I'm just going to point out scientificbeekeeping.com as the exception here.

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Re: How do you run your hives?

Unread post by Allen Dick » July 8th, 2017, 11:28 am

Are we taking about the same Randy Oliver? The one I have known personally for over twenty years funded his own work and only on the last decade has begun accepting money and advertising how to contribute since people were asking. He was self-financed until people began asking him to research things for them and travel to share his findings and it seemed reasonable to allow people to contribute.

Your comments were general, with no examples, so I'd be curious to know exactly how you feel he is political.

Granted, he has to be careful what he says since anyone recommending or even describing a process these days has to consider the possibility of being charged with something or another or being sued, but that is just how it is.
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