Questions At Farmers Markets

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Countryboy
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Questions At Farmers Markets

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Yesterday was the first farmers market of the season. I had a couple questions, and wanted some opinions on the proper way to answer them.

The first question was a guy who asked me if I knew of any treatment-free beekeepers. I asked him if he was asking if I knew any treatment-free beekeepers, or if I knew any successful treatment-free beekeepers. His wife/girlfriend said successful treatment-free beekeepers.

I told him that I knew of treatment-free beekeepers, but I did not know any successful ones around here. (Which is a fib, as I know ONE successful TF beekeeper, but he is an exception that few couple duplicate.)
The guy was getting flustered, and asked me about Kirk Webster and Michael Bush. I told him that from what I knew of Kirk Webster, he lived like a hermit in a little shack who was basically living in poverty. Michael Bush admitted on a YouTube video a few years ago that he had not extracted any honey in 5 years or so. To me, that is not successful. I also mentioned that a BeeSource member said MB made a comment last summer that he did not know what his winter losses were from the previous year because he hadn't visited all his beeyards yet because he had been so busy with speaking engagements.

I did tell the guy that that I had been keeping bees about 10 years, and when I started I followed Michael Bush's info. Every year I lost 40%-70% of my hives and barely produced any honey. I could split hives to replace losses and keep live bees in hives, but I could not get the hives to thrive.

I mentioned that I went to Apimondia in 2013. I met some beekeepers from Brazil and Mexico who have Africanized bees, and they are treatment free. And I met an Australian beekeeper who was treatment free because they did not have varroa there.

The guy gave me a "whatever" and stormed off. It was clear that he did not like the answers I gave him.

I do know ONE successful TF beekeeper, and he quietly admits (publicly) that he does not treat for varroa. He also says that he takes his losses, and also thinks folks should be experienced beekeepers if they are going to try TF. That guy is Joe Latshaw. The reason he does not treat for varroa is because he was getting too good and having too many hives overwinter and he wanted to be able to stress the bees harder so he could eliminate weaker genetics and select stronger hives.
I consider Joe Latshaw a successful beekeeper. I also suspect that if he experienced devastating losses, he would treat to save his remaining stock too. But I consider Joe to be the exception, and not the rule. Most new beekeepers do not have Joe's skills and knowledge and business operations and it would be virtually unlikely for a new beekeeper to copy Joe's TF beekeeping.

The second question I got at the market was from a lady who asked me why she should buy my honey instead of from the other guy. This is my first year doing this market, and the other guy has been selling honey there for several years.
The other guy is 75 years old. The last I knew, he had about 75 hives. He also sells beekeeping supplies from his home. I talked to him a year ago, and he told me that wax and candle sales are close to half of his sales at the market. I'm pretty sure he has to be buying wax wholesale, because he is selling more wax products than a 75 hive beekeeper can produce.
This is a very big farmers market. At 75 years old, I know it is only a matter of time before he retires or dies or health reasons stop him. He appears in good shape physically and I think he hires some help, but there is no avoiding Father Time. He's going to catch up to you someday, and I am trying to position myself to take over the market when this guy slows down.
The other guy sells his honey for $7 a pound, or $12 for a 32 oz jar. I was selling at those prices 5 years ago. I charge $9 a pound, and $16 for a 32 oz bottle. (2nd year at these prices.) I had several customers comment on how reasonable my prices were. I still sold $300 in honey in 3 hours, even though the other beekeeper was undercutting me by $2 a pound. I have no idea what his sales were.

So why should a customer buy my honey instead of his? I told the lady to taste my honey, and then to taste his, and buy whichever one she prefers. Every flower has its own unique honey taste and honey from different locations will have slightly different tastes.
I told the lady that I was sure he sold a quality honey also, and I would prefer that she bought from him instead of buying WalMart honey...but I also appreciate every customer who prefers my honey.

I also pointed out that I have been keeping bees for about 10 years, and have traveled to international beekeeping conferences, and I also have over 100 beekeeping videos on YouTube.

After the show as folks were tearing their booths down, I did a quick walk around. I did not see the other honey guy there - it was his wife and a younger girl at his tent. If in the future he does not show up every week and has someone else working his tent, I am going to point out that I am the actual beekeeper and can answer people's questions about bees. The other honey guy's wife and employees aren't going to have the same beekeeping knowledge that I have.

So, does anyone have any suggestions for better ways to handle these 2 people at my tent at the farmers market? (Neither one bought honey.) Anyone have any better arguments for why someone should buy from me instead of buying from the other guy?
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Countryboy
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

Unread post by Countryboy »

My honey is local. The other guy's honey is local.

I heat my honey to 100-110 to reliquify and bottle. I assume the other guy follows similar practices. Most small beekeepers don't pasteurize their honey or heat it to high temperatures.

I strain my honey, but do not filter it. I assume the other guy also strains but doesn't filter. (Most small beekeepers don't have pressure filtering ability.)

Is preference and presentation how you would differentiate the honey?
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

Unread post by BadBeeKeeper »

The first question was a guy who asked me if I knew of any treatment-free beekeepers. I asked him if he was asking if I knew any treatment-free beekeepers, or if I knew any successful treatment-free beekeepers. His wife/girlfriend said successful treatment-free beekeepers.
It sounds like this was a conversation that wasn't going to be productive for you anyway (in terms of making a sale) and probably should have been avoided. The fact that he even asked the question indicates that he may have had some pre-formed opinion/bias.

From *your* point of view, you are not privy to the internal operations of other beekeepers and their books, and you have no accurate knowledge of their success or lack thereof...nor the means to judge the difference between your definition of success and theirs.

So, your best answer, that is truthful and avoids the application of any opinions or judgments, would be "I have heard that there are some who try to be treatment free, but I have no way of knowing if they are successful or not since I have not seen their operations or their books." Really, unless you *have* seen these things you do not have any factual information on them, anything you may have read on the internet is nothing more than hearsay or rumor.

The only factual information you could honestly discuss would be your own experiences in going TF. I would have left out any other names and said "I tried it, and it didn't work for me. I lost xx% of my hives every year and couldn't produce any honey to sell."

As for the second question:
The second question I got at the market was from a lady who asked me why she should buy my honey instead of from the other guy.
I told the lady to taste my honey, and then to taste his, and buy whichever one she prefers.
This was probably the best answer you could have given.
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

Unread post by TWall »

It sounds like you handled it about right. TF is always going to have people seeking it out. If it works for you great. Pricing depends on your goals. I NEVER want to be the lowest priced. You had good sales despite being higher priced. There is perceived higher value. Your education adds value. Your presence, as the beekeeper, adds value. I am not looking to be a volume seller. Your goals may be different. Having more honey vendors may benefit your sales. It can build a market reputation for honey sales. It is kind of like going to 'Amish country' to buy amish goods.

Increasing product lines can increase sales. Beeswax/candles, comb honey, pollen, etc. are examples. This all comes with increase costs too. But, the bottom line may be better.

An example is Rothchild Farm in Urbana, OH, https://www.facebook.com/Robert-Rothsch ... 829100136/. They have a few acres of raspberries. They sell a lot more raspberry products than they grow raspberries. They go to Italy to buy glass bottles to sell vinegar with a few raspberries in it. They make a lot more on the glass bottles than the vinegar or the raspberries they buy. More locally look at Knox Berry Farm.

The real money is made in the marketing of the products not the production.

Tom
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

Unread post by Allen Dick »

I agree with the other comments. We did seven farmers markets a week and that is how we managed to build up to large commercial status. At one point, we were able to quit the markets, but by then we had reached a much larger scale and could manage with bulk honey prices that were a half to one third of the retail.

As the scale increases, the productivity per hive falls, but costs per pound produced fall faster. Labour, transport, and container costs are lower in bulk production and owner living costs are spread over many more hives and pounds.

Retail prices and sales tend to be relatively stable, but bulk prices fluctuate drastically and there are months and even years when bulk sales stall and buyers low-ball prices. While the retail beeekeeper can count on cash flow as long as honey crops are okay, the commercial beekeeper may have to sit on a crop a year or more.

Belonging to co-ops and government loan programmes can help mitigate the feast and famine aspect, but never trust a bank to carry you through. Any bank.

Demand (operating) loans are particularly dangerous since they can be called anytime with no cause or explanation. Long term, non-demand loans are safer, but financing assets should be based on the cash flow they generate, not the 'market' value. Market value can go from overvalued to almost nil quite quickly. Counting on selling for any large fraction of the purchase price is folly.

Assume that whatever you buy has reached its highest value the moment you buy it and will be worth less the next day and decline thereafter. There can be pleasant surprises, but don't base plans on hope.

You make your money buying carefully -- or not buying. Making money selling is far more difficult.
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

Unread post by Countryboy »

From *your* point of view, you are not privy to the internal operations of other beekeepers and their books, and you have no accurate knowledge of their success or lack thereof...nor the means to judge the difference between your definition of success and theirs.
You bring up a good point that can be used to differentiate my honey from another beekeeper's local honey. I don't know how they process their honey, and I can tout how I do mine. I strain but don't filter, and only warm it to 100 degrees to reliquify and to bottle (still within biological normal temps for honey). And for the customers to taste my honey and decide which they prefer.
Increasing product lines can increase sales. Beeswax/candles, comb honey, pollen, etc. are examples. This all comes with increase costs too. But, the bottom line may be better.
I agree. I had 2 or 3 customers last Saturday ask me if I sold pollen. It's a producer only market. I don't trap pollen. The other honey vendor sells pollen. (But I highly doubt he trapped it and processed it.)

I occasionally have people ask me about comb honey. When I have produced comb honey, I have been lucky if I sold one or two squares of comb honey at a market. So for me, comb honey has not been worthwhile.
An example is Rothchild Farm in Urbana, OH, https://www.facebook.com/Robert-Rothsch ... 829100136/. They have a few acres of raspberries. They sell a lot more raspberry products than they grow raspberries. They go to Italy to buy glass bottles to sell vinegar with a few raspberries in it. They make a lot more on the glass bottles than the vinegar or the raspberries they buy. More locally look at Knox Berry Farm.
I'm not familiar with Rothchild Farm, but that is along the lines of what I want to end up with. My 5 year plan is to have a farm market at my house. I have 1/4 acre of thornless blackberries and expanding to half acre, my honey sales, I have 80 pounds of hardneck garlic planted, egg and chicken sales, etc. I may also buy some stuff from Waterford to resell, like pumpkins or flowers. But I anticipate I will hire help to run the farm market - I don't want to do it myself.
With the NRCS program, it's awfully tempting to put up a greenhouse. I don't have time to deal with greenhouse stuff, but when they will pay for 75% of it...it's tempting. I was the high scoring individual in the state in high school in the FFA Nursery and Landscaping contest...and I enjoy propagating plants.

I only have about 4 acres now. The next door neighbor lady is 75 and has emphysema/COPD. She just quit smoking (for the umpteenth time) a week or so ago...the doctor just told her she may have 15 more years to live. She celebrated by buying a pack of cigarettes.
She has 10 acres. Her heirs have given me first dibs on buying the place after she dies.
Hopefully by the time she dies I will know whether I want to focus on retail or wholesale.

And there is a decent market for pasture raised chickens. I already have a drum plucker so I may branch out into raising meat chickens too. State regulations allow you to sell up to 1000 processed chickens a year from your home without any inspections or health department BS.
More locally look at Knox Berry Farm.
What's to look at? The owner has a full-time job. The berry farm and garden produce is just on the side with an honor stand. It's out of the way on a dead end road. (Last I knew the bridge has been closed for years - I don't think the county ever replaced it.)
They have never made a commitment to making a go of the berry farm. I suspect that if anyone put a serious effort into being competition, the Knox Berry Farm would pretty much be done for.

Or were you thinking of Ann's Raspberry Farm? http://www.annsraspberryfarm.com/ They have branched beyond selling raspberries and now the bulk of their sales are jams and jellies and the brussels sprout relish.
(SWD (spotted wing drosophila) has really impacted their raspberry production and they don't always have a lot of surplus berries to sell after all the berries they need for their jams and jellies. They are certified organic - Dan told me they spray Entrust to control SWD, but you also need to pick every day too.)

https://www.yodersfinefoods.com/index.asp is another local business to look at. They used to be Yoder's Cider Barn, and many folks still know the business as the Yoder's Cider Barn.
They buy in truckloads of frozen and fresh berries. (So I know I can sell my 2nd quality blackberries to them too. And who knows, I may find it more profitable to sell wholesale berries to them, instead of chasing retail markets for berries.)

I agree with looking at the secondary and tertiary economy as a way of making the real money. Primary producers create the wealth, but don't get to see much of it. If you want to be profitable, it really helps if you have value added products.
I am trying to expand my honey production until I have a good portion of wholesale and retail honey sales. But instead of selling buckets of honey (which get bought by smaller beekeepers who resell the honey and just create competition for me) I am talking to a small winery to get some mead production going. That way my surplus honey production goes to a different honey product, instead of ending up on store shelves competing with my label.
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

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We did seven farmers markets a week and that is how we managed to build up to large commercial status. At one point, we were able to quit the markets, but by then we had reached a much larger scale and could manage with bulk honey prices that were a half to one third of the retail.
I am doing 5 markets a week this year at peak. I am currently getting $9.00 a pound for my honey, and wholesale it to stores at $5.50. The local price for buckets of honey is $185.

My current goal is to grow to where I can consistently produce and sell (wholesale and retail, no bulk sales) 10,000 pounds of honey per year. I am doing about half that now.
Belonging to co-ops and government loan programmes can help mitigate the feast and famine aspect, but never trust a bank to carry you through. Any bank.
The only bank I trust to carry me through is my piggy bank.
The only debt I have is a $225/month mortgage on my 2nd house. Everything else is paid for, and I have no wife or kids, so I can survive lean times easier.
You make your money buying carefully -- or not buying. Making money selling is far more difficult.
I'm going to slightly disagree.
You reduce your input costs by buying carefully. (Some people incorrectly call this saving money.)
You make the money when you sell.

Reducing your input costs can help your bottom line, allowing you to keep more of what you make. But people sometimes lose sight of opportunity costs or how much they stand to lose by trying to pinch pennies.
I'll give you an example. When I was younger I would help a grain farmer when I was laid off from my machinist job. There were times he had me drive halfway across the state to chase a part for doing a repair. Bill didn't care how much that part cost - yes, he could have saved a couple bucks by having the part shipped to him instead of me chasing it down. When he had 1000 or 1500 acres of corn or beans that he needed to harvest, he was losing serious sales money every day that he wasn't running.

I was raised by family with the Depression mentality of pinching pennies. They will step over dollars in potential sales to pick up dimes of reduced costs. They also have great difficulty placing a dollar value on time. (Sadly, I have had family members express astonishment at me 'wasting' money by buying things when I could have just used some duct tape and baling wire. It would have taken me longer, but it wouldn't have cost me anything.)

I've never forgotten the quote you put in your diary years ago. You can not save yourself into having a fortune. You must first earn your fortune before you have anything to save.

And in order to earn that fortune, sometimes you have to spend money. (But this is not license to spend money that isn't going to make you money. You still need to be thrifty, and you want your purchases to have value.)
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Re: Questions At Farmers Markets

Unread post by Allen Dick »

Agreed. You have to spend money to make money and your comments about losing dollars to save pennies are too true.

However, the amount we spend is gone the minute we spend it. The amount we expect to earn is just speculation unless we have a contract, and even contracts can be broken or renegotiated.

The past is certain, but the future -- even five minutes from now -- is unknown.
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