Dose anyone run top bar beehive

[Honeyman]

I was wondering if anyone is running top bar beehives if so can you help me in building a few I was going to build them like a rectangle and put bars on the top well anyone with suggestions would help this is my first year trying bees

[Countryboy]

I have a top bar hive. I built it probably 5 years ago. I had bees in it for a couple years. Then when they died out, it was empty for a couple years. Then this summer I put a small swarm in it. They were still alive the other day.

I built my Kenya top bar hive using the plans on Michael Bush's website. It's a simple top bar hive to build. I bought new lumber to build mine, and had less than $50 in it if I remember right.
I ran 2X4's through my planer to get the 1.25 thickness for brood comb bars, and used the normal 1.5" thickness of a 2X4 to make my bars for honey combs. I cut the bars on my table saw so they ended up with a triangle hanging down about 3/4 of an inch as a comb guide. I have never had problems with bees trying to cross comb. So far, they have always followed the comb guides. (The bees have attached the combs to the sides of the hive before.)

http://www.bushfarms.com/beestopbarhives.htm

I don't know what your woodworking skills are like. In my opinion, the bars are the most important part of a top bar hive. Take the time to make nice bars.

I see bars other people have made that have a slot for foundation, or they dribble a line of wax as a comb guide. These methods are JUNK. Do not be stupid and try them. The ONLY way I would ever recommend people do top bar hives is with bars that have a wooden comb guide.

[Countryboy]

Just out of curiosity, since this is your first year with bees, why are you wanting to get started with a top bar hive?

Aside from the novelty aspect, the only advantage I know for top bar hives is their reduced cost to get started. Well, there is less weight involved in manipulations, since you are only dealing with one comb at a time instead of a whole box. (Assuming you never have to move the TBH, since it is heaver and more awkward to move than a Langstroth.)

Langstroth hives are easier to deal with.
If you want to make money with bees - use a Langstroth hive.
If you want to produce more honey, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want the honey to be easier to extract, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want it to be easier to treat for mites, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want it to be easier to move hives around, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want to be able to interchange combs with other hives, either use a Langstroth hive, or else build every TBH identical.
If you want combs that are easier to inspect without worrying about them breaking off, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want to be able to do whatever you are doing in the hive faster, use a Langstroth hive.

Did I mention that Langstroth hives are just easier to work with?

Yes, TBH's are interesting to play with, but Langstroth hives are a lot easier.

If you want to see how cheap you can keep bees, build a TBH. (Or keep bees in a gum.) If you want to see how much money you can make with bees, use a Langstroth hive.

And Langstroth hives are just easier.

[Kens]

This was recently posted on Calgary Beekeepers network

http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/Th ... 20Hive.pdf

[Colino]

Langstroth hives are easier to deal with.
If you want to make money with bees - use a Langstroth hive.
If you want to produce more honey, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want the honey to be easier to extract, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want it to be easier to treat for mites, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want it to be easier to move hives around, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want to be able to interchange combs with other hives, either use a Langstroth hive, or else build every TBH identical.
If you want combs that are easier to inspect without worrying about them breaking off, use a Langstroth hive.
If you want to be able to do whatever you are doing in the hive faster, use a Langstroth hive.

You forgot to mention it is also harder to do emergency feeding if you have to. That was one thing I couldn't work out satisfactorily. IMHO TBH's are a novelty and not serious bee keeping.

I built my Kenya top bar hive using the plans on Michael Bush's website. It's a simple top bar hive to build. I bought new lumber to build mine, and had less than $50 in it if I remember right.
I ran 2X4's through my planer to get the 1.25 thickness for brood comb bars, and used the normal 1.5" thickness of a 2X4 to make my bars for honey combs. I cut the bars on my table saw so they ended up with a triangle hanging down about 3/4 of an inch as a comb guide. I have never had problems with bees trying to cross comb. So far, they have always followed the comb guides. (The bees have attached the combs to the sides of the hive before.)

If you do build one, build your bars 19" long so they will fit in a langstroth, in case you want to change over and not have to butcher combs to do it.

[Allen Dick]

TBH's are a novelty and not serious bee keeping.

Agreed. (Unless you happen to live in Kenya and have no money).

[Colino]

TBH's are a novelty and not serious bee keeping.

Agreed. (Unless you happen to live in Kenya and have no money).

I wasted 2 years on them, but I did learn some on how to handle bees.

[Countryboy]

You forgot to mention it is also harder to do emergency feeding if you have to.

I knew there were things I was forgetting. I never fed my top bar hive though. (Well, other than putting it in an area with open feeding.)

I have heard of people putting a Boardman feeder inside the TBH to feed them.

If you do build one, build your bars 19" long so they will fit in a langstroth, in case you want to change over and not have to butcher combs to do it.

I never worried about trying to save combs, or transfer bees on comb from a Langtroth to a TBH or vice versa. A package or swarm works fine. Then again, I was never trying to do it with little or no money either.

The thing that I wished I did different was making the TBH about 2 inches shorter. The combs hang down 2 inches farther than I like, and the bottom 2 inches isn't used for much. Why is the 2 inches an issue? I still have a 3 frame tangential extractor. If I cut 2 inches from the bottom of the TBH combs and uncapped them with a scratcher, I could extract the TBH combs in my 3 frame extractor. Yes, I had to take my time and be gentle, but it was possible to extract the honey and save the combs for reuse. The basket on the 3 frame extractor prevented the combs from blowing out.

I also agree that a TBH is a novelty hive. It's definitely educational too, just like an observation hive. But I would advocate for folks to learn the basics of keeping bees with a Langstroth first, and maybe then get a TBH after they have a few years of experience. I would hope people don't start out with a TBH as their first hive. (Unless they are in Kenya and don't have any money.) The learning curve for a TBH is a little steeper than for Langstroth hives, and it is easier to find a mentor to learn about Langstroth hives.

[Allen Dick]

Invented by a Canadian. Johnny Corner was the British Columbia provincial apiarist years back in the seventies and I think the eighties.

http://www.vernonmorningstar.com/mobile ... id=9964803

Nice guy. He traveled to Africa to share his beekeeping experience and found the money and technology for modern beekeeping simply did not exist there.

http://www.worldwidebeekeeping.com/foru ... ic=1704.20

[Colino]

If you want to see how cheap you can keep bees, build a TBH. (Or keep bees in a gum.) If you want to see how much money you can make with bees, use a Langstroth hive.

Or both because there are different ways to do things. If you have some basic hand skills you can build your own Lang equipment for next to nothing. When I switched to Langs I scavenged all my building materials (still do). For around $200 for staples, glue and gas I built 15 complete hives including frames. It took me a whole winter but my winters are free so it gave me something to do. It is amazing how much good paint you can pull out of paint recycling bins and oil paint can take quite a bit of freezing. Believe it or not, Rustoleum metal paint is excellent on wood if put on over a good primer. Then I spent $360 for 2 packages and $40 for 10 drawn comb. Off those 2 packages and a swarm I caught I harvested 200 lbs of honey which I bottled and sold most of for close to $2000. Minus the jars for the bottling it more or less payed for my start and bought me 4 more packages the 2nd year. Last fall I harvested 1000lbs of honey and I have sold almost $3600 to date. I was looking the other day and 3 years after getting into Langs I've got $10,000 in equipment, drawn comb and bees. That is a better return on investment than from my concession business. Here is a video I made of how to use scavenged 1x4 which is what most crating is made from these days. These videos are for information only and are not intended to teach you the proper use of power equipment.
https://youtu.be/yfyGF947Rd4
The 1st video of how I built my frames.
https://youtu.be/FrK2mG44wpQ
This winter I built 8 what I call Semi EPS boxes, while I still scavenged the lumber I bought $50 worth of styro foam and glued it to the outside with glue from the recycle bin. After this years honey crop I plan on buying commercial EPS hive bodies.
https://youtu.be/IAZRPieBR4U

[Countryboy]

Time is money. If you spent an equal amount of time building top bar hives instead of Langstroth hives, how many hives would you have now?

You spent labor instead of capital acquiring hives. How much money would you have if you worked somewhere else the same number of hours you were building hives, and just bought new hives? Crunch the numbers. Building hives with free and salvaged lumber may have been incredibly costly to you. The poor man pays twice.

When I was growing up, we had nothing...except time. I grew up around a lot of poor country folks who didn't understand the true value of time. It's interesting to note that wealthy people understand the value of time. Poor folks don't. I've tried to develop a mentality like a rich person, because I aspire to be rich (or at least very comfortable and secure) someday. The more financially secure I become, the more I understand how valuable time really is. (I'm not rich yet, but I am working towards it.)

When you approach a project thinking that it will only cost you time (in the hopes of reducing cash inputs), I encourage you to ask yourself the 3 questions I think folks should ask before making any financial decision.
1. What do I have to gain?
2. What do I have to lose?
3. What are my alternatives?

It seems like even if folks ask #1 or #2, they forget to ask themselves #3.

It is amazing how much good paint you can pull out of paint recycling bins and oil paint can take quite a bit of freezing. Believe it or not, Rustoleum metal paint is excellent on wood if put on over a good primer.

It's incredibly difficult to obtain any oil based paints here in the US now. (EPA) Your options are pretty much latex paint or latex paint.

[Colino]

Time is money. If you spent an equal amount of time building top bar hives instead of Langstroth hives, how many hives would you have now?

You spent labor instead of capital acquiring hives. How much money would you have if you worked somewhere else the same number of hours you were building hives, and just bought new hives? Crunch the numbers. Building hives with free and salvaged lumber may have been incredibly costly to you. The poor man pays twice.

When I was growing up, we had nothing...except time. I grew up around a lot of poor country folks who didn't understand the true value of time. It's interesting to note that wealthy people understand the value of time. Poor folks don't. I've tried to develop a mentality like a rich person, because I aspire to be rich (or at least very comfortable and secure) someday. The more financially secure I become, the more I understand how valuable time really is. (I'm not rich yet, but I am working towards it.)

When you approach a project thinking that it will only cost you time (in the hopes of reducing cash inputs), I encourage you to ask yourself the 3 questions I think folks should ask before making any financial decision.
1. What do I have to gain?
2. What do I have to lose?
3. What are my alternatives?

It seems like even if folks ask #1 or #2, they forget to ask themselves #3.

It is amazing how much good paint you can pull out of paint recycling bins and oil paint can take quite a bit of freezing. Believe it or not, Rustoleum metal paint is excellent on wood if put on over a good primer.

It's incredibly difficult to obtain any oil based paints here in the US now. (EPA) Your options are pretty much latex paint or latex paint.

Good morning Countryboy:

You and I are like 2 drywallers carrying a piece of 12ft long plasterboard. We're each steering our own end differently. I am looking at this as a hobby, I had no intentions of making a career out of it and spare time for me is abundant. If you are still building your wealth time will be different for you. But if you have no time it may pay for you to spend money instead of time, but the time you do spend is not always lost when building wooden ware because it is not a one shot deal. That wooden ware will keep making you money year after year and it will pay for the time you spent. One thing you're not considering is the environmental cost by buying new. By re-purposing materials I'm also saving a bit of the planet for my children and grandchildren. That is also the reason I've quit doing the consumer thing where I run out and buy something just to feel good or have the latest toy. You're also looking at it through the lens of being in the U.S.and being able to purchase inexpensive wooden ware. Right now Mann Lake has a sale on where you can save big and with free shipping. We don't have that luxury in Canada an un-assembled hive body that you can buy for $20 will cost us closer to $30 because of shipping and I still have to assemble and paint it. I can build an un-assembled deep for less than $2 including my time and even with assembly and painting it probably doesn't cost $15. As for getting rich, nobody on their death bed ever said they wished they had spent more time at the office. I have spent my time at a job, I built my wealth and thanks to our Canadian social programs I am enjoying a wonderful Semi retirement which I started when I was 47 because I don't have the burden of health insurance premiums. When I hit the big 65 I'll go into full retirement because right now I don't consider my business a job and I can't wait to hit the road selling chicken next summer.
Colino

[Countryboy]

I am looking at this as a hobby, I had no intentions of making a career out of it and spare time for me is abundant.

When I was about 20, I took a mail order course on Successful Investing and Money Management. One of their pieces of advice was to find a profitable hobby. If you are going to have a hobby, make it profitable. Don't choose a hobby that will be a financial drain on you. You can still try to make a hobby profitable without making a career out of it.

But if you have no time it may pay for you to spend money instead of time, but the time you do spend is not always lost when building wooden ware because it is not a one shot deal. That wooden ware will keep making you money year after year and it will pay for the time you spent.

If you spend an hour building a frame from scratch, or work an hour and buy 10 frames, which is the better option? Personally, if I can get 10 frames for the price of one, I would consider myself an idiot for choosing one.
Now if I had no other options for earning the money to buy frames, I might consider making a frame from scratch. (However, if I had the skills to make a frame from scratch, I suspect I would have marketable skills sufficient to do something that paid better than making one frame. but personally, I can't compete with the low cost of mass produced frame parts.)

I do buy frame parts. I haven't bought store-bought boxes in several years. I can buy rough cut lumber pretty cheap here...about $3.50-$4.00 for the lumber to make a deep box. I generally value my time at $20-$25 an hour. I'm fast enough at making my own boxes that I can buy lumber for $4 and pay myself $20-$25 an hour, and I can still make boxes cheaper than buying them at $15 each.

One thing you're not considering is the environmental cost by buying new. By re-purposing materials I'm also saving a bit of the planet for my children and grandchildren.

I am well aware of the environmental cost. Lumber is a renewable resource, which means you are not saving anything.

I am also aware of the tremendous damage to the environment caused by recycling. Unless the item is valuable (such as metals) and the recycling place pays you for the items, it is better for the environment for you to throw away the old item and buy new. When you factor in the costs of hauling the recycleables around, sorting them, etc. it is harder on the environment to recycle an item than it is to make a new item.

Besides, I have no children or grandchildren, and I am terribly optimistic about the ability of future generations to find new technology to improve their lives also.

As for getting rich, nobody on their death bed ever said they wished they had spent more time at the office.

That's BS. LOTS of people on their deathbeds wished they had more money to leave behind. (Spending more time at the office may have helped them do that.) Heck, some people even kill themselves to leave more money behind. (life insurance payouts, or to reduce family expenses for their care, etc.)

I built my wealth and thanks to our Canadian social programs I am enjoying a wonderful Semi retirement which I started when I was 47 because I don't have the burden of health insurance premiums. When I hit the big 65 I'll go into full retirement

I hope your knees work well because I foresee you spending a lot of time on them praying.
I suspect that anyone depending on a government retirement or government health care are in for a very rude awakening in the not so distant future.

The Canadian government sold all their gold, and now have ZERO gold reserves. The price of oil is killing the loonie. The only option Canada has left is inflation of the money supply...which means your government retirement check will buy less and less each month...and the medical care they will provide will be less and less. I'd recommend keeping the chicken business and bees going to make sure you have a way of ensuring an income, and do your best to get int he best physical condition and health you can right now.

[Colino]

I am well aware of the environmental cost. Lumber is a renewable resource, which means you are not saving anything.

There are still environmental costs involved in renewable resources being sustainable does not make them environmentally inert.

That's BS. LOTS of people on their deathbeds wished they had more money to leave behind. (Spending more time at the office may have helped them do that.) Heck, some people even kill themselves to leave more money behind. (life insurance payouts, or to reduce family expenses for their care, etc.)

Only those who value money more than a good life.

I hope your knees work well because I foresee you spending a lot of time on them praying.
I suspect that anyone depending on a government retirement or government health care are in for a very rude awakening in the not so distant future.

The Canadian government sold all their gold, and now have ZERO gold reserves. The price of oil is killing the loonie. The only option Canada has left is inflation of the money supply...which means your government retirement check will buy less and less each month...and the medical care they will provide will be less and less. I'd recommend keeping the chicken business and bees going to make sure you have a way of ensuring an income, and do your best to get int he best physical condition and health you can right now.

Conservative nonsense.

[Allen Dick]

Nonsense is a strong word. Especially in a top bar topic.

Nobody knows the future and history is a repeating sequence of good times and very bad times, and few see the bad times coming.

Brian's observations are not without a very respectable following, and only time will tell if we can borrow our way to prosperity. If so, it will be the first time in history.

Is it ironic that a front runner in the US is a bankrupt several times over, yet he kept his toys?

Just sayin'

[Charlie]

Honeyman can you explain why you find top bar hives more attractive than the Langstroth design?

[Colino]

Nonsense is a strong word. Especially in a top bar topic.

I was talking about the praying part.

[Allen Dick]

Well we're already seeing the decline in healthcare services. Governments simply cannot afford to keep all the promises they were forced to make in the past. We are entering the ugly phase where all the debts come due.

[Colino]

Well we're already seeing the decline in healthcare services. Governments simply cannot afford to keep all the promises they were forced to make in the past. We are entering the ugly phase where all the debts come due.

Personally I haven't seen any decline in health services, but maybe that's because I don't get all mine through a large center. As for the debt, there will always be recessions or depressions,
especially with Trudeau and the low price of oil. I lived through the last Trudeau and the National Energy Program, nothing scares me anymore. We have the financial buffer but more important the ability to produce and process most of our own food if need.

[Countryboy]

Only those who value money more than a good life.

Money isn't everything, but the lack of it is. While money can't buy happiness, it can buy a lot of experiences and opportunities than can help bring happiness.

You are going to have great difficulty having a good life (by most folks standards) when you are lacking money. Studies have shown that people's personal happiness increases as their income increases, up until about $75,000 in annual income. Above $75,000 in income, personal happiness starts to decrease, most likely because of stress involved with dealing with the higher income.

In my area, the average worker pay is $23,000 a year and average household income is about $40K.

Conservative nonsense.

Interesting, considering that I am a true liberal. (Classical liberal.)

Is it ironic that a front runner in the US is a bankrupt several times over, yet he kept his toys?

Technically, I don't believe Trump ever personally went bankrupt...just some of his companies did.

It's simply a reflection of the bankruptcy laws in the US. The way it works is to own 2 businesses. (or more) You borrow heavily with one business, and then transfer all the assets from that business over to the other business. Then you put the first business through bankruptcy which wipes out the debt, while the second business gets to keep all the assets debt-free.

Having experience with bankruptcy may be a good point, since the US needs to file bankruptcy to get rid of all the debt it can never repay.

Trump claims to have about $2 billion in net worth. The interesting thing is that if he would have taken the money he inherited from his father, and put that money into the S&P, his net worth would now be $10 billion.

I should point out that I am not a fan of Trump. To be quite honest, I haven't seen any visible candidate who I would be comfortable with being President.

I was talking about the praying part.

There's an old saying, "Crap in one hand, and wish in the other, and see which one fills up first." I think a person's chances are better by praying than by wishful thinking, regardless of which deity you pray to.

As for the debt, there will always be recessions or depressions,

Are you aware that prior to central banking, recessions and depressions were virtually unheard of. While sectors of the economy would contract, other parts of the economy would be expanding. Contractions across the whole economy, for extended periods of time, (other than during times of war or famine) was an unknown phenomenon.

I lived through the last Trudeau and the National Energy Program, nothing scares me anymore.

Pride goeth before the fall. I suspect what is coming will be many magnitudes worse than what people have dealt with in living memory.

We have the financial buffer

What financial buffer? You have no gold reserves. Canadian debt is at 84% of GDP. All fiat currencies eventually return to their intrinsic value, which is zero.

but more important the ability to produce and process most of our own food if need.

Only 2% of Canadians are farmers. Yes, you produce enough food to feed everyone, but what happens when the hungry people don't have the money to buy the food? The US bulldozed lots of good food during the US Depression of the 1930's too, while many people starved. What happens if there is a disruption in the supply chain? How many days of food do stores have. Here in the US, people have an average of 2-3 days access to food before the store shelves go empty. While people in rural areas often stockpile food at home in pantries, folks in cities are often at the mercy of what is on store shelves.