Underwing

General Discussion of Diary Posts and Questions on Beekeeping Matters
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Mark
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Underwing

Unread post by Mark »

Is there anyone around the strathmore area that is willing and has time to show me around and give me some much needed tips? Thanks mark
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Countryboy
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Countryboy »

Yes, Mark. We are all as close as your computer screen. That's the beauty of the internet.

I don't want to sound rude, but you seem really whiny. This is the second thread you have started looking for someone close to Strathmore. And by the description of what you are looking for, it sounds like you want a beekeeping babysitter to spend untold hours holding your hand and keeping you "underwing."

A few weeks ago, Allen hosted a beekeeping workshop at his home in Swalwell. By the looks of things, Swalwell is maybe 40 miles from you. That would have been your golden opportunity to meet local beekeepers. If you ask nice, maybe Allen will let you come visit him sometime...or if you take the time to read his diary from years gone by, you will find lots of info about other beekeepers (some commercials) in the area, and undoubtedly, someone has hives in your area.

In your other thread, you mentioned starting a top bar hive. Please let me give you some advice. It is unrealistic to look for any local TBH beekeepers to mentor you. Top bar hives are a novelty, and VERY FEW beekeepers have top bar hives. I have a top bar hive, but ALL the information I learned about TBH's I learned online.

I didn't have a real life mentor to teach me about bees. I learned about bees by reading, and information I could get online. After I had a good beekeeping foundation, I helped a small commercial guy for one summer.

I think people will obtain a far better beekeeping education from the internet as long as they have the intelligence to separate the wheat from the chaff. Some people on the internet are armchair experts who know nothing, and then there are guys like Allen who have been there, done that with bees, and made a comfortable living running 3 or 4 thousand hives.

The Honeybeeworld forum has a small number of active participants, but has a deep pool of knowledge and experience from all across North America. If you want to learn about bees, you came to the right place. If you want someone to hold your hand and babysit you in person, you may be better off looking elsewhere. (You might check to see if there are any local bee clubs near you.)
B. Farmer Honey
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Mark
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Mark »

Thanks for your opinions,but I'm not hear to wine.im hear to learn as much info as possible before spring ,when I start hives,and before I get my course in the fall or winter.i realize that there is a lot of info on the web sites and books I have downloaded and read but a lot of times the info is the opposite of the last article you read.and hands on learning as far as I'm concerned is the best way to learn.thanks Mark.
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Colino
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Colino »

Countryboy wrote:I don't want to sound rude, but you seem really whiny.
That didn't sound rude that is rude.
A few weeks ago, Allen hosted a beekeeping workshop at his home in Swalwell.
Bee day was Sunday August 23rd. and Mark didn't join Honeybee world until Monday August 24th. It might just be me but I think Monday comes after Sunday. :?
Narcissism is easy because it's me or I, Empathy is hard because it's they or them.-Colino
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Countryboy
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Countryboy »

My advice would be to read every single page of Allen's dairy. Until you get it read, avoid reading any other bee articles or websites. After you have read the entire diary, you will have a better understanding of how to separate the wheat from the chaff. (Of course, if you actually read all the dairy pages, you may soon find yourself to be the local "expert" at beekeeping that everyone else comes to with questions, because you will have a better knowledge of beekeeping than most beekeepers.)

You may find that if you just try to help yourself, you may not end up needing anyone else to help you after all.

You need to understand that many experienced beekeepers consider inexperienced newbees to be a big nuisance and pain in the butt. My experience is that 99% of the questions from beginning beekeepers are questions they could have answered themselves if they would have done some basic reading.

It has been my experience that it is incredibly difficult to get a quality education in beekeeping locally. The successful beekeepers who really know what they are doing, are very few and far between, and are usually too busy to give much one on one time mentoring beginners. It's unlikely you will find the true master beekeepers at a local bee club, but you will find some on the computer. Learn to be quiet and listen when guys like Allen, Keith Jarrett, or Jim Lyons talks. (You don't have to agree with how they do things, and sometimes guys might pat themselves on the back quite a bit...but they have a wealth of experience and knowledge, and they occasionally pass on some gems of wisdom. Make sure you are paying attention so you catch these gems.)
and hands on learning as far as I'm concerned is the best way to learn.
If that's what you believe, why are you bothering reading anything, or taking bee courses? Just get a hive of bees. You will learn a lot of what not to do, and you will probably learn how to kill a hive of bees too...exactly what someone local will teach you.

Or better yet, why don't you go get a job with a commercial beekeeper? Or just offer to pay them for their time of teaching you?
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Countryboy
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Countryboy »

Countryboy wrote:
I don't want to sound rude, but you seem really whiny.


That didn't sound rude that is rude.
Some folks might consider it rude for a new member to create 2 threads wanting to find a mentor too.

Some folks might consider it rude for someone to create a thread about wanting to find someone to mentor them in Strathmore, without giving any information of where Strathmore is. Where is Strathmore? I've never heard of it. (I had to Google it to see where it was. Good thing there aren't many places called Strathmore, or I'd have no idea where he was talking about.) And why should I be the one to have to Google Strathmore, when he is the one wanting help? That just reinforces the whiny perception - he expects everyone else to cater to his wants, rather than him doing what he can for himself and to make it easier on the people he is asking for help.
Bee day was Sunday August 23rd. and Mark didn't join Honeybee world until Monday August 24th. It might just be me but I think Monday comes after Sunday.
And my first thought after finding out that Mark is in Alberta was that perhaps Mark attended the Bee Day, which is why he joined here the day afterwards. I was trying to be polite and suggest to him that he would have a better chance of finding a local mentor from people who attended Allen's Bee Day than on an international internet forum. I thought perhaps he thought this forum was mainly Alberta beekeepers if he found out about it at Allen's Bee Day.
B. Farmer Honey
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Charlie
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Charlie »

Mark,
I am a relative rookie in that I am just finishing my third season. Yes I have killed entire hives, I’ve let entire hives die, I have killed Queens and made almost every stupid mistake in the book. I am also a firm believer that people learn best by analyzing their mistakes, which maybe a foolhardy delusion on my part. However CountryBoy is absolutely right in that Allen’s Diary and this form has a vast amount of historical data pertinent to the area that you’re trying to keep bees in. The search functions on the site work pretty well and when you can’t find something, a question in the forum will generally give you a well-thought-out answer although not always the answer you want.

As far the top bar hives go I understand that they are cheap to make and they’re supposed to be better for disease and mites etc. However the people that promote these hives in northern countries just do not understand thermodynamics. There is a lot of surface area on top bar hive to leak heat when compared to a standard hive. I would ask you the following questions to help you understand:
• If top bar hives are better for bees and cheaper to make than a standard hive then how come no commercial beekeeper’s use them? This is the exact reason that I chose a standard hive design and I’m very glad I did. One of my neighbors chose a top bar hive and his bees die in the winter.
• What are the inspection times like for a top bar versus a standard hive? A beekeeper that I’ve talked to in Calgary says his inspection time is double with the top bar hive versus a standard hive.
• How do you wrap up top bar hive for winter in Canada’s Prairie provinces when everything is at an angle? The standard hive is pretty square and easy to do.
• If you look at all of the bee supply houses there is very little equipment for top bar hives? That is because all of the equipment is for standard hives and believe it or not that makes your life easier.
• How much effort do the bees put in to make in one frame of wax, whether it’s a top bar or a standard frame? My understanding is that most people crush the top bar honey frames to get the honey. This seems to me to put an additional burden on the bees to keep rebuilding the frames with wax.

I could go on but the logic of using a top bar hive at this latitude escapes me because they were actually designed for Africa and the last time I checked Africa doesn’t need to deal with 30 below and colder.
My neighbor is all about top bar hives, so as an experiment we made an adapter plate for his top bar hive and put a double standard hive on top of the adapter plate. We also forced the bees to travel through the top bar hive to get out. To even my surprise the bees have not moved down into the top bar hive and have not made a single piece of comb in the top bar hive. My neighbor is now questioning the logic of top bar hives. I am not saying that top bar hives are a bad thing, I am saying the logic of top bar hives in this climate escapes me and it appears by the top bar hive is harder to keep in this climate. However I’m sure in Calgary you will find successful beekeepers with top bar hives.

Now don’t get me wrong I wholeheartedly agree with experimenting and trying different things to find a better way. I personally don’t like using chemicals and would prefer not to use them however it is irresponsible not to treat for mites or other diseases so that you don’t spread your issues to other hives around you. You don’t want to be the guy making things worse for everybody when you’re actually trying to make them better. However with all of the hobbyists in North America looking for a better way I would be willing to bet there might be one or two that comes up with a small improvement over what the commercial beekeepers are doing and I would be willing to put good money that it won’t be you or me with that better idea. For starting out, stick with the tried and true until you have enough experience to know what will work and what won’t work.

Successful Commercial beekeeper’s have the “Art” of keeping bees down to a science. Minimal amount of work and input costs equals maximum profits. I believe Allen had 4000+ hives at one time and is gracious enough to share his thoughts/experience and this site with us. I guarantee you he has written volumes on the subject, just use the search feature of the site.
Finally as you’re just starting out I will offer you the following advice:
1. When you get your first hive find a local beekeeper such as Allen and buy a complete hive.
a. The bees have already survived the local climate.
b. The bees have an established hive with drawn comb to start from.
2. Drawn comb is like gold when starting out, buy extra if you can but only if it’s from a reputable source.
3. Heat is everything inside the hive. I am just in the process of changing my hives to the Styrofoam/Styrene that Allen uses from Beaver Plastics near Edmonton because they retain heat better.
4. Keep in mind while you’re learning where the source of your information is coming from. As an example the Fat Bee man in Georgia does not need to deal with freezing temperatures 4 to 5 months of the year. However he does have to deal with wax moths, small hive beetles. I’m not saying you can’t learn anything from him just you need to be cognizant that the person will be telling you how they do it from their area which may not be a great idea for the Calgary area.
5. Bees can sting through your suit.
6. Follow the practices of a commercial beekeeper until you know what you’re doing. You cannot have thousands of hives without knowing what you’re doing.
7. Understand if you ask 10 beekeepers for their opinion you could get 11 or 12 opinions.
8. Search the forum for “myths about beekeeping”. Allen did a presentation some months back about the myths and beekeeping and there was some lively discussion on the topic.

I hope this helps you in some way
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Colino
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Colino »

Charlie wrote:Mark,
I am a relative rookie in that I am just finishing my third season....
Excellent post Charlie you've pretty well covered my opinion on the subject of TBH's. I started out with TBH's that's why I have the mini TBH swarm traps. Although they did give me an education on how to work bees etc. they were a waste of time and bees because winter killed them. They are not much easier or less expensive to build than a Langstroth hive once you're set up. I've built over 60 boxes and my first 500 frames, lids and covers for around $200 because I scavenge all my lumber. I even scavenge the paint I use which is plentiful if you know where to look and what to look for. Below is a video I did on how I use scavenged 1X4 to make hive bodies because there is a lot of scrap 1X4 out there. I'm experimenting now with gluing cheap styro foam to my hive bodies to make what I call semi EPS boxes. I'm getting good results with them if the larger brood build up is any indication.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gjyycz47h2rb ... LNU9a?dl=0
https://youtu.be/yfyGF947Rd4
Colino
Narcissism is easy because it's me or I, Empathy is hard because it's they or them.-Colino
Allen Dick
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Allen Dick »

A belated welcome, Mark.

I don't know about reading every single page. That would be cruel and unusual punishment IMO, but I have put a lot of info into these pages over the past fifteen years -- and the search works well.

We are talking about having a Wintering Day here in the next few weeks, but have not set a date.

As for getting bees, what I recommend is to buy a functioning hive or two at any time of year, then learn how to manage them. It is dead simple, really, if you are not out to make a living or care about how much honey you get.

Other than needing a few basic management operations annually, they pretty well take care of themselves.

As for books and courses, treat them as fiction. They are entertaining and can show you new ways to kill your bees and generally get in to trouble, and you will learn a lot, but most of it will be confusing and distract you from the basics:

Which are:

Good location, adequate space for the time of year, timely inspections and treatments, knowledgeable honey removal, and feeding when required.

Add to that making some bee friends to argue with, and there you go.

You just learned everything you need to know.

The rest is details.
Allen Dick, RR#1 Swalwell, Alberta, Canada T0M 1Y0
51° 33'39.64"N 113°18'52.45"W
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Allen%27s%20Beehives.kmz
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Mark
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Re: Underwing

Unread post by Mark »

Thanks everyone ,I will take everything into consideration ,it is all much appreciated.lots of reding in here to catch up on.
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