Re: AFB risk in buying honey supers with drawn comb?

AdrianQuineyWI · May 26th, 2015, 6:22 am

I have the opportunity to buy 6 5/8" boxes of drawn honey super comb for $20. Is there always a risk of contracting AFB when buying used comb, or is it only related to buying drawn brood comb?

AdrianQuineyWI · May 26th, 2015, 9:54 am

Vance, thanks. I appreciate your thoughts.

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » May 26th, 2015, 10:51 am

Is there always a risk of contracting AFB when buying used comb, or is it only related to buying drawn brood comb?

There is always a risk of AFB whether you buy comb or not, and even if you start on foundation.

My commercial beekeeping friends don't seem to be at all worried about buying white comb from known sources, and will buy brood comb as well. They don't treat prophylactically with antibiotics and see maybe several cases a year per 1,000 colonies at max, and they operate in areas where there are small beekkeepers with known AFB. They do annually irradiate all dead-outs routinely, however.

People who begin on foundation also get AFB, regardless of what many teach and like to believe. AFB is everywhere and if your bees are susceptible, it is just a matter of time. Since the odds are small, it may take a while if you only have a few hives. The more hives you have the sooner, you are bound to see it -- if you are looking.

AFB does not happen overnight, and it seems that many of the commercial strains of bees are quite AFB resistant these days. There are, however susceptible strains and you don't know that you have one until you see AFB breakdown.

AFB is not that hard to manage if you find it in time. There are various approaches, and your choice is going to depend on a lot of things.

In my experience, inspecting and playing with AFB over many years, OTC is pretty useless, but Tylan properly applied will promptly and finally end the problem -- until next time, and that next time could be years and years away -- and, that next infection may well come from the surrounding environment.

In short, it all depends on your current situation, your ability to manage bees, and your understanding of risk. I would not buy any comb from a seller who has more than a touch of AFB, and an obvious inability to detect and eliminate it. That should be obvious from looking at the brood combs that were under the supers.

If you don't have any AFB now, it could be because your equipment is relatively free of spores, or it could just be that you have AFB resistant bees. There is really no way of knowing without testing every hive for HYG, and for that matter, HYG is only one component of AFB resistance. There are other mechanisms.

One thing for sure, though, if you have susceptible bees, you will soon find out, and the scale from those colonies will contaminate and challenge the more resistant hives.

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » May 26th, 2015, 2:15 pm

Did I post this here before, or just to the Calgary beekeepers list?

> Ask yourself if you'd be comfortable swapping underwear with the person you're buying from - For in effect, that's what you'd be doing to your bees.

While there may be truth in this for people who have no ability to inspect equipment for AFB, or make sense to people with fear of germs generally, or only like brand new things, there is little risk if the equipment is inspected, and bees prefer older equipment. Just ask them. Given a choice, where is the queen laying in a box of mixed old and new combs and foundation? Often in the oldest, rattiest frame. Go figure.

As for bee diseases, few bee diseases endure for long in unoccupied equipment. AFB is the one to worry about, but unless there is visible scale, good bees can usually manage anything that cannot be seen.

Fear of disease can be carried too far. Bees generally go all around the neighbourhood and look in one anothers' hives and are exposed to anything nearby anyhow and extreme prophylactic efforts by beekeepers are wasted.

Commercial beekeepers have the lowest disease rates compared to hobbyists and exchange equipment between hives and yards without much concern. Many never use antibiotics routinely, and I don't know of any who sterilize their gloves or hive tools -- and yet their hives thrive. They also buy supers back and forth with other commercials and even swap colonies with no fear.

However, many commercials do irradiate deadouts, never supers though. I don't know of any who fumigate supers with acetic acid either.

Buying used equipment from reliable sellers is perfectly safe and a wise practice since starting hives on new equipment is hard on bees and often leads to losses either in spring or in the following winter.

Drawn comb is a beekeeper's most valuable possession and using good drawn comb rather than new foundation can mean double the crop and better wintering the first year.

> Worst of all is woodenware "Found in a barn", or from someone who "Got out of beekeeping". Usually there are unidentified reasons why this equipment is no longer in use, and will come with a high cost any any price.

While this may be true in some cases or the wax may be too old or mouse-chewed to be of any value, sometimes perfectly good equipment is available second hand. People cut back on bees, move, get sick, or die and if you are in the right place at the right time, you could get a deal.

People who bought Joe's drawn comb when he sold down recently got a really good deal. If I didn't have too many bees already, I would have been tempted. He had really nice brood combs. One of them was worth five frames of foundation IMO.

The secret to happy and trouble-free beekeeping is buying good (hygienic) bees, keeping them well-fed, on drawn comb, and adding only maybe 10% new foundation to a hive each year.

Dr. Don Peer took the time to write to tell me that I needed drawn, brown brood comb to winter successfully when I began over forty years ago as an idealist bee-ginner and I explained that I intended to start on foundation for all the same reasons that we hear repeated now.

What he told me then is a true today as it was then.

I realise that is not what many teach, but it is the simple truth and known by generations of successful commercial and sideline beekeepers.

Just as old cheese and old whiskey are preferred by connoisseurs, old bee equipment is preferred by discerning bees.

AdrianQuineyWI · May 28th, 2015, 7:55 pm

Thanks for your thoughts. I was amused by the underwear swapping analogy. Do you have any ideas as to why wintering seems better on mature comb? Is there some insulative properties in the coccoons themselves?

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » May 28th, 2015, 7:58 pm

Older comb is fully drawn and contains propolis. Bees also seem to prefer dark plastic frames to white, so maybe it has something to do with heat re-radiation inside the hive.

Metropropolis · July 27th, 2015, 1:44 pm

Allen Dick wrote:Did I post this here before, or just to the Calgary beekeepers list?

> Ask yourself if you'd be comfortable swapping underwear with the person you're buying from - For in effect, that's what you'd be doing to your bees.

While there may be truth in this for people who have no ability to inspect equipment for AFB, or make sense to people with fear of germs generally, or only like brand new things, there is little risk if the equipment is inspected, and bees prefer older equipment. Just ask them. Given a choice, where is the queen laying in a box of mixed old and new combs and foundation? Often in the oldest, rattiest frame. Go figure.

As for bee diseases, few bee diseases endure for long in unoccupied equipment. AFB is the one to worry about, but unless there is visible scale, good bees can usually manage anything that cannot be seen.

Allen,

Everything you say makes sense - But it's also important to circle back and recognize the context of the original discussion on the Calgary Beekeepers List: Which was my response to a new beekeeper looking for deals on used equipment.

Every year, our club is deluged with 40 enthusiastic new beekeepers, many of whom are looking for deals on woodenware. They don't care if it comes from failed hobbyists, or from an abandoned rural stockpile of unknown provenance.

A modern beemaster (I forget who) observed that the riskiest used equipment is that which is no longer in service. To paraphrase, if the equipment was good, it would probably still be in service, not abandoned in a barn for reasons unknown.

I am personally aware of an instance where such a "Found deal" lead to a multi-year foulbrood infection that went unrecognized, resulting in one beekeeper of 10+ hives and his protege giving up beekeeping completely.

Half the price at twice the cost.

In terms of the plentiful failed-hobbyist equipment currently abandoned in Calgary garages, most of it probably suffered little more than garden variety varrokill, and nothing worse. Such equipment obviously presents no risk. That being said, I'd prefer not to see those dice rolled in our city just so a newcomer can save a few dollars.

Undoubtedly there are many circumstances in which it is desirable and safe to use old comb - But in the context of dealing with new hobbyists asking for deals, there is really only one appropriate and responsible answer, and that is: Don't buy used equipment.

Countryboy · Unread post by **Countryboy** » July 27th, 2015, 10:24 pm

I think it is important to draw a distinction between used brood combs, and used honey supers with drawn comb. Combs that have only been used for honey pose virtually no threat of AFB.

Undoubtedly there are many circumstances in which it is desirable and safe to use old comb - But in the context of dealing with new hobbyists asking for deals, there is really only one appropriate and responsible answer, and that is: Don't buy used equipment.

I think it is also important to make a distinction of the geographical area your advice applies to. Where I live, experienced beekeepers have a better chance of AFB from used combs than hobbyists do.

Yes, you read that right. Where I live, hobbyists pose virtually no threat of spreading AFB if they use drawn comb.

The state inspection reports show Ohio has a 0.2% AFB rate.

It's not because beekeepers are vigilant for watching for AFB.
It's not because beekeepers treat prophylactically for AFB.
It's not because no one uses used equipment.
It's not because everyone is running AFB resistant bees.
It's not because we have no feral bees to spread AFB or to act as AFB reservoirs.

It's because of 2 things. Varroa and wax moths.
Varroa plus AFB equals a quick hive death. We have wax moths here, which quickly move in and destroy the diseased combs.

Used to, AFB was a long, slow death for a hive. Now, varroa has made hive declines rapid. (A lot of local beekeepers are treatment free. We're starting to see more new beekeepers who treat, but they are still a small minority.)

The reason why I said that new hobbyists pose a much lesser threat than experienced beekeepers is because hobbyists are less likely to realize there is a problem until after the wax moths have taken care of things. An experienced beekeeper is more likely to treat for varroa, or catch a hive death before the wax moths have eliminated the diseased combs, and may save the combs to re-infect the next bees on that comb.

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » July 28th, 2015, 12:14 am

> Ask yourself if you'd be comfortable swapping underwear with the person you're buying from - For in effect, that's what you'd be doing to your bees.

This is rhetoric, not logic, and, although it is amusing and although it creates a very powerful, personal and persuasive image, it is actually a distraction from really identifying and understanding the issues.

It is not that I don't understand that point of view and all the arguments for it, and the seemingly immutable logic. I do, and, in fact I held and promoted those exact views starting out over four decades ago -- in spite of being warned by Dr. Don Peer, at the time arguably the most respected beekeeper in Canada -- and having paid the price for ignoring his advice. (After all, every newbie who reads a bit knows better than people who have made a living in the business for years or decades. It was true then and it is true today).

Although the logic for avoiding purchased drawn comb appears sound, that very emphasis on logic with a sprinkling of scary examples thrown in masks the fact that the underlying assumptions are questionable and that the cases presented as 'proof' are hardly representative of the whole.

Moreover, most or all the examples reported could, in most cases, have been prevented or mitigated by far less extreme, expensive and oppressive measures than forcing bees to draw a lot of comb.

What the advocates of 'foundation only' miss is that while there are small and manageable costs and risks to using drawn comb there are large and unavoidable risks and costs in terms of hive survival and honey production in the north. Things are very different down south where it never really gets cold and much of our literature and influences originate.

There are a lot of reasons why people promote starting on foundation. "Follow the money". The first and original reason is the same reason people eat manufactured food that is killing them instead of much cheaper and often healthier and more enjoyable basic foods: advertising.

Advertising and manufacturers financed and supported beekeeping education publishing and extension from the time beekeeping became mechanized and commercial products became central to beekeeping.

Nobody except the beekeeper made money by if people re-used frames, boxes and foundation, and manufacturing was so profitable that beekeepers often switched to manufacturing bee equipment because they could not make enough money with bees, then had money to spend promoting their ways of doing things.

Successful beekeepers have no reason to actively promote buying drawn comb to potential competitors. They are too busy buying all the drawn comb they can find. Still are. Most will tell you if you ask, though, if you talk of using foundation exclusively that it is not going to be easy.

AFB is not the bogyman. It's everywhere, and it is manageable.

Most bee diseases can be controlled or have a cure. Anyone who intends to be a beekeeper needs to be able to identify and deal with bee disease, and attempting to dodge the bullet simply does not work. People using only foundation gets diseases too, but are likely to think they are immune.

No one is really a beekeeper IMO until he or she has faced and dealt with with AFB, varroa and other beekeeping problems, whether in their own hives or seen it in others, including equipment they are considering buying.

I am personally aware of an instance where such a "Found deal" lead to a multi-year foulbrood infection that went unrecognized, resulting in one beekeeper of 10+ hives and his protege giving up beekeeping completely.

What does this prove? To me it seems obvious that these guys would have gone down anyhow.

It would not have mattered if they had run 100% foundation. They were doomed sooner or later and maybe were lucky they did not get deeper before their inevitable baptism day.

They did not know one of the most important skills in beekeeping: how to inspect brood. They could have picked up AFB from anywhere, and since they were obviously unable or unwilling to spot, diagnose, and recognize the disease they were doomed from the start.

They are not alone in that but others have learned and coped. One well-known large commercial beekeeper had 1/3 of his thousands of hives seriously infested and dying before he realized that he had AFB. Once he did, he dealt with the problem promptly, without destroying more than a small portion of his equipment, scorching boxes or any of the other tomfoolery, and now now that operation is many times as large and has an AFB number close to zero.

I'm guessing that probably as many beekeepers have quit due to frustrations and failure when starting on foundation as have quit due to AFB, and I assure you that those who used drawn comb had better chances and a better all-round experience.

Finding several cells of what I suspected to be AFB in my hives which I started on foundation in new equipment in new boxes is an isolated area was what got me into bee inspection forty years ago. I called the chief inspector and we dealt with it and I was hired simply because I could see AFB. Many people seemingly can't, even when they have a full frame of stinking, black, scaly AFB right in front of them in broad daylight. They don't want to, I guess.

Of course when it gets to that stage is is melt, burn, or irradiate, but how does it get to that stage? Deliberate ignorance is the only explanation I can find and I hate to say that because a very good friend recently showed me some comb and I knew before I even saw the cells that it was AFB by the unmistakable smell.

In such cases it is obvious, but the trick is to spot it in the beginning stages when a minor intervention can stop it.

Don't tell people to use foundation and expect not to get AFB. Rather tell them they will get AFB sooner or later and that they had better be able to spot it and deal with it promptly themselves.

The biggest problem with AFB has been that people felt shame and were in denial when it arrived, ignored it, or otherwise let it avalanche, largely due to the way that AFB is taught, beginning with the promotion of starting new.

Colino · Unread post by **Colino** » July 28th, 2015, 9:15 am

A commercial operator near me culled out 300 drawn honey frames because they will not work in his new uncapping machine. Since I uncap by hand, I traded him a case of Chubby Chucks Chicken for them because he was just going to melt them down. After vigorous scrapping and cleaning I have 25 supers of useable comb and some not so pretty ones that I will use in my swarm traps. A few had small patches of dead brood and while I didn't see any AFB there were a small number with some chalk brood(2 or 3 cells). Those, with the really bad ones I'll melt down. I got 10lbs of dirty wax from the scrapping that I put through my solar wax melter. My cost works out to 39 cents each so time will tell how this will play out and whether my good deal turns into a disaster. I'll let you all know whether it's this

or this

.

Colino · Unread post by **Colino** » July 29th, 2015, 3:19 pm

Well I'm impressed! We hit the road again tomorrow but I took an hour out to lift some lids and check supers. The girls have done a fantastic job with the culled honeycombs. They are cleaned up and covered with beautiful white cappings. I have no time to remove supers, so I put on another round and will check them again next Tuesday when I get home. With my schedule there is no way I can extract anything for at least 2 weeks. It looks like I will need to harvest honey with a step ladder.

Colino · Unread post by **Colino** » August 5th, 2015, 8:12 pm

Well it looks like I'm getting some of this

. We're home between events until tomorrow so I took the time to pull supers off of 4 hives. I got 10 supers full of honey and I still have 7 hives to do next week when I will be extracting! I don't know how the girls managed such a big honey crop from an inch and a quarter of rain. The main crops here are finished but the girls are still bringing it in, from where I have no idea. If you give them drawn comb they will fill it. YeeHaa!!!

Vance G · Unread post by **Vance G** » August 7th, 2015, 4:42 pm

Good job there lad! I have the dry land blues here. One of my locations got rain but the other is pretty scant. The bees are just making a living and I just had surgery and can't do much about it anyway or I would have moved them out a couple weeks ago. It will be a great year NEXT YEAR though.

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » August 7th, 2015, 5:46 pm

It will be a great year NEXT YEAR though.

In my experience, the year after a dry year is not a good honey year, even if it rains. That is not scientific, but just what i seemed to notice, and may depend on the location and flora.

Colino · Unread post by **Colino** » August 27th, 2015, 6:16 pm

You were right Allen, I took a risk and came out ahead of the game so it's beginning to look like I'm getting nothing but this

from the culled honey frames I got from a commercial Beek near Medicine Hat. I pulled 23 supers and spun out almost a 1000lbs of beautiful white honey. The numbers don't quite add up because for that many supers we should have gotten around 1400lbs but I think the culled frames were a bit uneven making them less than 6 lbs each. I'm not complaining though and I can only suppose it was the Mustard crop 200 yards from my apiary that gave us what we got. I bottled 360 two lb jars from our 1st spin, of which I've sold over a 100 at $10 a lb. I give people a taste and most take 2 jars, one fella bought 25. I'm in the process of straining the 2nd and 3rd spins now and will have to put them into 5 gallon pails in the freezer until we can bottle them. I just have no idea how we're going to move this much honey, we'll have to get a table at the weekend farmers market I guess. Right now it's looking like I could lose my whole apiary to AFB and still come out ahead, buying new bees and building new equipment. But thanks to learning from you guys/gals that's probably not going to happen.
Colino

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » August 27th, 2015, 6:24 pm

Right now it's looking like I could lose my whole apiary to AFB and still come out ahead,

That's what I try to tell people and many won't listen. They are too terrified of disease.

The main thing is to know what to look for and what to do or who to ask if and when you do see AFB. If you catch it early it is a minor nuisance.

You are in the south and there are lots of NZ bees around you, so you may have some susceptible hives. Keep an eye open and make sure you would spot a cell or two when checking brood.

AFB is not the end of the world, but rather the beginning of an education.

Countryboy · Unread post by **Countryboy** » August 27th, 2015, 8:44 pm

I just have no idea how we're going to move this much honey, we'll have to get a table at the weekend farmers market I guess.

Do you want to move honey, or do you need something to do to kill time?

In my experience, you don't move large volumes of honey at farmer's markets, but the honey you do sell, you get retail price for it.

In my limited experience, I move 10-20 pounds of honey at a farmer's market. I kill 3 hours at a market, and kill at least another hour before and after the market in set-up and tear-down, and drive time. I expect a market to kill 5-6 hours.

I have a few stores that sell my honey. They consistently sell 60-70 pounds of honey per month. If you want to move honey, my recommendation would be to find a store to carry your honey. They call in an order, I bottle it up, and delivery is usually a 5-15 minute drive.

When I sell my honey at farmer's markets, I get $9 a pound, and $16 for a 2 pounder.
When I wholesale to stores, I get $5.50 a pound, and $10 for a 2 pounder.

If you have any fall harvest festivals or craft shows, these are often even better for sales than farmer's markets. My experience is that I can do $300-$600 at a festival, but $100-$200 at a farmer's market.

Kids groups are always looking for fundraisers. Boys scouts or whatever. My cousins daughter got the opportunity to go to Europe a few years ago, and she wanted to find ways of making money. I let her sell my honey. She got it at wholesale price, and she sold it at retail. She sold quite a bit of honey. (Sadly, she lost her enthusiasm for selling honey after the trip.)
If you know any kids wanting to do a fundraiser, offer to supply the honey and they get to be the sales people.

Colino · Unread post by **Colino** » August 27th, 2015, 10:53 pm

Do you want to move honey, or do you need something to do to kill time?

Thanks for the tips Countryboy. I really don't want to get involved with stores because the packaging regulations here are probably a big hassle. Besides having to put up with the Gst police etc. There are a few trade shows during the year I'll have to look into that. Otherwise I'll kill time at the local farmers market.
Colino

Unread post by **Allen Dick** » August 28th, 2015, 4:26 am

Don't you ruin a chicken stand?

That would be a good place to sell honey, I'd think.

Countryboy · Unread post by **Countryboy** » August 28th, 2015, 6:20 am

I really don't want to get involved with stores because the packaging regulations here are probably a big hassle. Besides having to put up with the Gst police etc.

Probably a big hassle, or they are a big hassle? It would be worthwhile to actually find out. And, are the regulations actually enforced?

Here in Ohio, the packaging regulations are the same for products sold at a farmer's market or at a store. (The only exemptions people can get is for products sold at the farm itself. ie, selling eggs direct at the farm is different from selling them at a farmer's market or store.)

Off the top of my head, I think if you are packaging and selling at least 75% of your own honey, there is no inspection of your bottling facility. I have never heard of anyone checking to see if you are packaging more than 25% of bulk honey you purchased. I have never heard of the inspectors wanting to inspect anyone unless the people requested an inspection.

I do know of one family that has been inspected before. They said the inspector came, looked at their stainless bottling tank, and said they were good since it was stainless. That was the extent of the inspection. This was back when they were bottling honey inside their house. (They now have a room in a shed they bottle their honey in.) Their house is a mess. They have junk piled everywhere, and there are trails through the house.

From what I understand, under Ohio's labeling laws, we are required to have 2 forms of contact information on our labels of the honey producer/packer. (Address and phone) If the container is under 3 pounds, the weight must be labeled in both ounces and grams. If the container is 3 pounds and larger, it must be labeled in pounds and kilograms.
I have also heard that the honey labels are supposed to say it is home produced, but I have only seen one label say this.
I have NEVER heard of anyone getting in trouble for mislabeling honey. 95% of the honey labels I see are not properly labeled.

My labels say Pure Ohio Honey. B. Farmer Honey, Gambier, Oh and give my phone number. I do have the grams and ounces on the label. I do not put nutrition labels on my honey. I have never had anyone complain about my labels.

Here in Ohio, food products are sales tax exempt, so no need to deal with collecting sales tax.
If you are selling taxable products wholesale to a store, you do not collect sales tax anyway since the retailer collects the sales tax at the time of sale to the customer.