Having recently returned from the BC Honey Producers Association semi-annual, there was spirited discussion about the possibility of Alberta importing some queens from the mainland of the States. While there was widespread support, it inevitably led to the 'open the border for everyone' debate. Not surprisingly, the commercial beekeepers are mostly in favour of this move, while the smaller semi-commercial and hobbyist element strongly oppose the opening. As a relatively new commercial beekeeper with a modest operation, I can see both sides of the argument. My question, I guess is, why isn't it possible to open the border to queens and packages, but not to the movement of hives across the border? Would this not serve everyone's purpose? It would take the stress, in large part, out of beekeeping in our cool climate because at the end of the season we could kill off any hives that are weak or even mediocre, thereby ensuring that only the strong are carried over the winter, because the cost of replacing them in the spring would be greatly reduced. If there was some type of stringent standards, or certification program for importers, so that we were bringing in stock that showed strong resisitance to disease and pests, then in time we would be able to carry only superior stock, which seems to be a good mark to strive for. The downside, I guess (sorry to our US friends) is that we all know what happens when we let the Americans get a foot in the door...you can't put that genie back in the botle once he's out. However, as it stands now, what reason would young, prospective beekeepers have to enter this industry? Too much stress, too much output of money for bees, queens, and medication with little to no guarantee that you would even make it through one season without your stock dying off. Open the border to queens and packages and you take away a lot of the cost and stress, thereby making it a much easier, much more inviting industry to start in. Just a few thoughts on the issue, any comments?
~Jim
Border
-
Allen Dick
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: February 25th, 2003, 10:09 pm
- Location: Swalwell, Alberta
- Contact:
Good comments.
You are quite right. Unfortunately this whole topic is polluted by wild speculation and deliberate self-serving misinformation. Scaremongering and innuendo have dominated discussion ever since the border was closed, and even intelligent people are confused or deceived by the hype. They have never heard anything else.
I don't kniow why lies and misinformation predominate. It is odd. Obviously, there is no reason why any and all bee imports cannot be regulated provincially and locally -- even federally, just as domestic bee movement is controlled without closing the entire border to everything.
A few years ago, the Alberta Beekeepers Association, at my suggestion, I might add, got fed up with all the speculative BS and actually approached the federal and provincial governments to find out what the actual implications would be of a partial or complete border opening.
They spent quite a bit of effort on the research, and not surprisingly, the subject turned out to be far from clear-cut -- even to the regulators and tax authorities.
One thing is certain: US bee trucks would not immediately roll north the day that the comb law died to take up all the best bee sites -- as the fearmongers propose.
Any US operators wishing to come up here and run bees in Canada would have to deal with Canadian regulations and taxes, just as they did years ago when a number of US beekeepers operated in Canada, and, incidentally, when a number of Canadian beekeepers operated in the US. During those times we benefitted mightily from having US beekeepers share their experience, stock and capital with us.
As far as I am concerned, only a few people really know much about what could/would happen and and the rest are just speculating -- many loudly and belligerently.
Barrie Termeer was ABA and CHC president at the time that the ABA researched the legal ins and outs of border opening, and actually knows something about the topic. He tried to share that knowledge, but was shouted down enough times that he doesn't bother trying to cast pearls in front of swine anymore.
He'd be glad to share what he knows with anyone who would actually listen, however.
allen
You are quite right. Unfortunately this whole topic is polluted by wild speculation and deliberate self-serving misinformation. Scaremongering and innuendo have dominated discussion ever since the border was closed, and even intelligent people are confused or deceived by the hype. They have never heard anything else.
I don't kniow why lies and misinformation predominate. It is odd. Obviously, there is no reason why any and all bee imports cannot be regulated provincially and locally -- even federally, just as domestic bee movement is controlled without closing the entire border to everything.
A few years ago, the Alberta Beekeepers Association, at my suggestion, I might add, got fed up with all the speculative BS and actually approached the federal and provincial governments to find out what the actual implications would be of a partial or complete border opening.
They spent quite a bit of effort on the research, and not surprisingly, the subject turned out to be far from clear-cut -- even to the regulators and tax authorities.
One thing is certain: US bee trucks would not immediately roll north the day that the comb law died to take up all the best bee sites -- as the fearmongers propose.
Any US operators wishing to come up here and run bees in Canada would have to deal with Canadian regulations and taxes, just as they did years ago when a number of US beekeepers operated in Canada, and, incidentally, when a number of Canadian beekeepers operated in the US. During those times we benefitted mightily from having US beekeepers share their experience, stock and capital with us.
As far as I am concerned, only a few people really know much about what could/would happen and and the rest are just speculating -- many loudly and belligerently.
Barrie Termeer was ABA and CHC president at the time that the ABA researched the legal ins and outs of border opening, and actually knows something about the topic. He tried to share that knowledge, but was shouted down enough times that he doesn't bother trying to cast pearls in front of swine anymore.
He'd be glad to share what he knows with anyone who would actually listen, however.
allen
-
TS
Border
I was also at the BCHPA semi-annual on the weekend. Actually, this debate was less spirited than in some past meetings, partly because the BCHPA already has a position in support of imported queens. Some of the discussion was directed at what some regarded as the unnecessarily extreme protocol being developed.
I'm not quite sure why those folks who want to open the border want to limit this just to packages and queens. Perhaps it is because this is simply because this is the way it used to be. Free movement of hives might also be a good thing. With the shrinking number of wintering sites in BC for Alberta operators, this might take off some of the pressure. Those who wanted to go to California for an early pollination contract would be free to do so. They could then split or shake packages and some of the money from this trade would end up back in the country rather than just accumulate to large US beekeepers.
In any event, I think we should regard all these calls for tests, inspections and protocols with a jaundiced eye: the cost will probably be more than just submitting to the inevitable and leaning how to deal with imported problems, not forgetting the surety of imported solutions.
Tom
I'm not quite sure why those folks who want to open the border want to limit this just to packages and queens. Perhaps it is because this is simply because this is the way it used to be. Free movement of hives might also be a good thing. With the shrinking number of wintering sites in BC for Alberta operators, this might take off some of the pressure. Those who wanted to go to California for an early pollination contract would be free to do so. They could then split or shake packages and some of the money from this trade would end up back in the country rather than just accumulate to large US beekeepers.
In any event, I think we should regard all these calls for tests, inspections and protocols with a jaundiced eye: the cost will probably be more than just submitting to the inevitable and leaning how to deal with imported problems, not forgetting the surety of imported solutions.
Tom
-
Allen Dick
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: February 25th, 2003, 10:09 pm
- Location: Swalwell, Alberta
- Contact:
Good points.
>>>I'm not quite sure why those folks who want to open the border want to limit this just to packages and queens.<<<
I doubt they all care, but I think that is a good compromise for the time being. Beekeepers to the east are concerned about an 'American invasion'.
Most of us think that we could co-operate fine, but there are some, even among those in the Peace who are agitating for packages who think that, if bees on comb could come in, that US bees would go up there and put pressure on their locations. Some of the sites there are already subject to bidding wars between locals!
Personally, I think the Peace is not, and never will be again, the bee country it used to be when it was frontier. In those days, fireweed and clover grew everywhere in the waste areas and new breaking. Now it is just another vast monoculture.
allen
>>>I'm not quite sure why those folks who want to open the border want to limit this just to packages and queens.<<<
I doubt they all care, but I think that is a good compromise for the time being. Beekeepers to the east are concerned about an 'American invasion'.
Most of us think that we could co-operate fine, but there are some, even among those in the Peace who are agitating for packages who think that, if bees on comb could come in, that US bees would go up there and put pressure on their locations. Some of the sites there are already subject to bidding wars between locals!
Personally, I think the Peace is not, and never will be again, the bee country it used to be when it was frontier. In those days, fireweed and clover grew everywhere in the waste areas and new breaking. Now it is just another vast monoculture.
allen
-
JA
Tom, are you on the board of the BCHPA? I think I know who you are, but as it was my first meeting, I met a whole lotta people there, so not all names have faces for me yet. I look forward to future meetings, one thing I can say about beekeepers, we're passionate about what we do. I don't really have any objection to freedom of movement for the most part, as I seriously doubt that the Okanagan is too attractive to American beekeepers, low honey flow, limited pollination contracts etc, but as Allen said it might be a big issue for those in the east. I agree that it would seem to offer a good alternative to those in Alberta who put out a lot of effort to bring their bees west. One question that has been nagging me, however, is.....would easy access to package bees and the ability to kill off infected hives (mites, disease) in the fall, boost the overall health of our bees as a whole? If you find hives where disease or mites have taken hold, you could just get rid of that hive rather than trying to salvage it (at a high cost for medication etc) and propogating an inferior line of stock. In effect you are cutting off a big part of the mite reproductive cyle/food source, by taking those weak, infected hives, that would normally spread to other hives, right out of the equation. It seems logical, but maybe I'm missing something. Anyways, these are a few things that have been on my mind since the weekend.
~Jim
~Jim
-
Tom
Yes, I am part of the BCHPA executive.
I was interested to read in Allen's note that US beekeepers operated in Canada at one time. I was under the obviously incorrect assumption that cross-border traffic was never more than packages and queens. That is, that comb had always been restricted.
If the Canadian dollar continues to rise, the economics of a package operation become ever more compelling. Take away wintering costs, mite treatment costs and requeening costs, you can give up some considerable honey production. I'm not quite as confident as some that there is so ready a supply of bees in the US, but perhaps the existence of a new market would create more supply in a few years.
I wonder if Allen ever operated completely with packages or whether he is far enough south that he has always overwintered.
Tom
I was interested to read in Allen's note that US beekeepers operated in Canada at one time. I was under the obviously incorrect assumption that cross-border traffic was never more than packages and queens. That is, that comb had always been restricted.
If the Canadian dollar continues to rise, the economics of a package operation become ever more compelling. Take away wintering costs, mite treatment costs and requeening costs, you can give up some considerable honey production. I'm not quite as confident as some that there is so ready a supply of bees in the US, but perhaps the existence of a new market would create more supply in a few years.
I wonder if Allen ever operated completely with packages or whether he is far enough south that he has always overwintered.
Tom
-
Allen Dick
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: February 25th, 2003, 10:09 pm
- Location: Swalwell, Alberta
- Contact:
Yes, we did operate with packages only, but only for a few years. At the time, I did not like gassing bees, and, looking back, I think that it was not the best way to go. Mind you, at that time, the bees we were getting were bred to produce, not to winter.
Nowadays, I think that the best use for packages should be on making up for winter losses. Moreover, knowing that we can get cheap and good packages, many of us would double up our hives (stack one on another at the end of the season) and have virtually 100% success on the prairies, even without wrapping, the way I did when I ran 2 queen hives many many years ago.
As for gassing sick and weak colonies, in my (limited) experience -- and I really don't know everything -- mites and other diseases are controllable. It takes a little study and effort, but in most cases, they can be managed, so unless the beekeeper is especially untalented, or unlucky, I think that this should be the focus, and that beekeepers should just not abandon control efforts on the assumption that they will be gassing the bees.
There could be a problem, though, if we get a mix of those who wish to gas and those who wish to manage and winter, so maybe we do need to think about how this would play out.
Personally, I think that we should continue to breed resistant bees that winter well and use packages to make up for shrinkage when we cannot do it from our own stock.
One size will not fit all. We have seen some prosper and even gas bees every year under the current scenario, while others have been driven out of business. Most are somewhere in the middle. Where they find themselves often changes from year to year depending on weather and luck.
Packages definitely have their place -- and an important one -- in prairie bee management.
allen
Nowadays, I think that the best use for packages should be on making up for winter losses. Moreover, knowing that we can get cheap and good packages, many of us would double up our hives (stack one on another at the end of the season) and have virtually 100% success on the prairies, even without wrapping, the way I did when I ran 2 queen hives many many years ago.
As for gassing sick and weak colonies, in my (limited) experience -- and I really don't know everything -- mites and other diseases are controllable. It takes a little study and effort, but in most cases, they can be managed, so unless the beekeeper is especially untalented, or unlucky, I think that this should be the focus, and that beekeepers should just not abandon control efforts on the assumption that they will be gassing the bees.
There could be a problem, though, if we get a mix of those who wish to gas and those who wish to manage and winter, so maybe we do need to think about how this would play out.
Personally, I think that we should continue to breed resistant bees that winter well and use packages to make up for shrinkage when we cannot do it from our own stock.
One size will not fit all. We have seen some prosper and even gas bees every year under the current scenario, while others have been driven out of business. Most are somewhere in the middle. Where they find themselves often changes from year to year depending on weather and luck.
Packages definitely have their place -- and an important one -- in prairie bee management.
allen
-
Ian
>>If you find hives where disease or mites have taken hold, you could just get rid of that hive rather than trying to salvage it
>>In effect you are cutting off a big part of the mite reproductive cyle/food source, by taking those weak, infected hives, that would normally spread to other hives, right out of the equation.
This is the very reason there is so much pressure to open the border, and I agree. To have affordable stocking available would be a pressious resource to any operation.
I can't help but think though of all the disease transfer related problems that might come of it. I know we have alot of the common diseases, but resistance has not got a huge hold on us yet... and the Americans have got lots of it. I think the longer we delay the border opening, the longer we will have the current disease controlling options. And by then we might have genetics available in our bees to overcome the chemical resistance problems,....
Just my thoughts
Ian
>>In effect you are cutting off a big part of the mite reproductive cyle/food source, by taking those weak, infected hives, that would normally spread to other hives, right out of the equation.
This is the very reason there is so much pressure to open the border, and I agree. To have affordable stocking available would be a pressious resource to any operation.
I can't help but think though of all the disease transfer related problems that might come of it. I know we have alot of the common diseases, but resistance has not got a huge hold on us yet... and the Americans have got lots of it. I think the longer we delay the border opening, the longer we will have the current disease controlling options. And by then we might have genetics available in our bees to overcome the chemical resistance problems,....
Just my thoughts
Ian
-
Tom
On the other hand, it may be that the sooner we open the border, the sooner genetic advances will be available to us. Most of the advances in genetics are coming from south of the border. As a rule of thumb one might suppose that the first place with a problem would be the logical first place for a solution. That's why it might be said that, while the border closing worked to our advantage at first, briefly, by delaying the spread of this and that, now it might be working against us by slowing the solutions. We will have resistance problems aplenty shortly, no matter the status of the border as that is now essentially an unimportant variable, at least for varroa. If it turns out that, contrary to what has been said in some places, that the border can be opened without the free flow of comb, then it would seem to make sense to allow queens everywhere, and packages in the west more or less immediately.
Cheers,
Tom
Cheers,
Tom
-
Allen Dick
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: February 25th, 2003, 10:09 pm
- Location: Swalwell, Alberta
- Contact:
Yup, we are in agreement about that.
My concern is that we try to import the solution and not more of the problems. Queens make sense to me, because they can be screened for problems like SHB and varroa. Packages, on the other hand do carry SHB and resistant varroa.
Moreover, packages are likely to be distributed pretty well everywhere. I'm selling bees and get lots of calls. It is amazing how many wannabees, hobbyists and small (almost invisible to the rest of us) beekeepers from places we didn't know there are bees want to buy a package or ten. Packages seem to be particularly attractive to people who know nothing about bees and want to start. Anyone who knows about bees and does not have a lot of empty equipment knows that buying established hives or nucs is the most reliable way to go, but beginners almost always want to get packages.
Due to the ease of obtaining and transporting packages, I could see big problems landing suddenly and without warning in areas that don't even have mites now. That can happen with hives too, but to buy a hive, you have to talk to an actual beekeeper and get an okay from the provincial apiarist, who is likely to know and caution the buyer about such things.
There will be a time for mainland US packages, but it it not, IMO, now, unless there is some way to quarantine them and control distribution. It is also apparent that is is impossible politically. It's a miracle that we may be getting US mainland queens. If you'd asked me even two months ago, and asked me to bet, I'd have bet against queens for this year. The resistance from east of us was that strong.
I think in a year or two, if the varroa resistant stock proves out in Canada, that we might consider packages and also the movement of bees on comb.
allen
My concern is that we try to import the solution and not more of the problems. Queens make sense to me, because they can be screened for problems like SHB and varroa. Packages, on the other hand do carry SHB and resistant varroa.
Moreover, packages are likely to be distributed pretty well everywhere. I'm selling bees and get lots of calls. It is amazing how many wannabees, hobbyists and small (almost invisible to the rest of us) beekeepers from places we didn't know there are bees want to buy a package or ten. Packages seem to be particularly attractive to people who know nothing about bees and want to start. Anyone who knows about bees and does not have a lot of empty equipment knows that buying established hives or nucs is the most reliable way to go, but beginners almost always want to get packages.
Due to the ease of obtaining and transporting packages, I could see big problems landing suddenly and without warning in areas that don't even have mites now. That can happen with hives too, but to buy a hive, you have to talk to an actual beekeeper and get an okay from the provincial apiarist, who is likely to know and caution the buyer about such things.
There will be a time for mainland US packages, but it it not, IMO, now, unless there is some way to quarantine them and control distribution. It is also apparent that is is impossible politically. It's a miracle that we may be getting US mainland queens. If you'd asked me even two months ago, and asked me to bet, I'd have bet against queens for this year. The resistance from east of us was that strong.
I think in a year or two, if the varroa resistant stock proves out in Canada, that we might consider packages and also the movement of bees on comb.
allen
-
Ian
- Forum Regular
- Posts: 55
- Joined: March 14th, 2003, 3:09 pm
- Location: Mb, Canada
>>That's why it might be said that, while the border closing worked to our advantage at first, briefly, by delaying the spread of this and that, now it might be working against us by slowing the solutions
I disagree. Who says we can't take advantage of the possible future resistant stock when/if it becomes avaliable. Keep the problem out until a solution is found. I am in more agreement with shipping of queens, though disease can just as eaily be spread with them. Shipping of queen might be a compromise that could be taken. It decreases the possible spread of disease, and provides the beekeepers with the new genetics they want and need.
I strongly believe that the development of resistant stock is on the horizon. With more and more claims of trecheal, vorroa, and maybe even now AFB stock resistance! I believe with the genetic diversity within the honeybee population, it is just a matter of time until we are able to fully exploit the trait.
>>Due to the ease of obtaining and transporting packages, I could see big problems landing suddenly and without warning
And usually when problems land without warning, huge losses are taken before anything can be done. And in terms of spreading resistant AFB, operations "could" be wiped out....
Ian
I disagree. Who says we can't take advantage of the possible future resistant stock when/if it becomes avaliable. Keep the problem out until a solution is found. I am in more agreement with shipping of queens, though disease can just as eaily be spread with them. Shipping of queen might be a compromise that could be taken. It decreases the possible spread of disease, and provides the beekeepers with the new genetics they want and need.
I strongly believe that the development of resistant stock is on the horizon. With more and more claims of trecheal, vorroa, and maybe even now AFB stock resistance! I believe with the genetic diversity within the honeybee population, it is just a matter of time until we are able to fully exploit the trait.
>>Due to the ease of obtaining and transporting packages, I could see big problems landing suddenly and without warning
And usually when problems land without warning, huge losses are taken before anything can be done. And in terms of spreading resistant AFB, operations "could" be wiped out....
Ian
-
Jim
I agree with you there Allen. I think that there has to be stringent controls on who Canadian beekeepers can import packages from, however as you mention, beginning beekeepers prefer packages to nucs for whatever reasons. If we can come up with acceptable restrictions on packages, it could be an important turn for the industry here in Canada, because if new beekeepers want packages, and that gets them interested and keeps them interested, then that is nothing but a good thing. I've been keeping bees now for 6 years, I have worked for large operations, ran a small number on my own and now own a modest operation. In those six years I have been to Apimondia, many beekeepers field days and if there's one thing I have noticed, is that I am usually the youngest, and usually far in the minority as far as age is concerned (32). I was lucky, I had a supportive family and a great boss who encouraged my interest in bees and still does everything he can to help me and wife succeed. However, if I were young and interested in bees and did some research into the cost and stress of keeping bees in our current state, I would probably run screaming the other way. If readily available, relatively cheap packages are there for new beekeepers who just want to try a hive or ten to see if they like it, then they don't have to break the bank to do it, or to replace any that don't succeed. In our current state, what's going to happen in 10-15 years when most of the current beekeepers are ready to retire? Like any industry, there has to be a young, willing contingent ready to take over for those who are ready to retire or who want to move on to new things. As it stands now, I don't see that, perhaps opening the border, under restrictions can resolve that issue.
~Jim
~Jim
-
Allen Dick
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: February 25th, 2003, 10:09 pm
- Location: Swalwell, Alberta
- Contact:
You are right about the age of beekeepers, and I think the current increase in honey price may improve this a bit, since whenever the price goes up for a while, we get an infux of new people.
As for (relatively) safe packages, we have them available now, from Australia and New Zealand. I realise that there are some problems there, too, but so far, NZ mites respond to Apistan, and the chance of SHB in Aus pkgs is unknown, but estimated to be far lower than many US mainland pkgs. US mainland pkgs are accused of spreading both mites and SHB, and I suspect there is some truth, in at least some cases.
If packages are permitted into Canada from the US mainland, then IMO, their distribution must be controlled and limited to specific closed regions. At present, we do not have mechanisms in place, but if the import of US queens is successful this year, then we will have the consensus and mechanisms in place that US packages could conceivably be brought in later -- under strong protocols.
The unfortunate thing is that, just when it looks safe to bring in US packages, a new scourge shows up. This time it is coumaphos resistant mites. They are killing entire US beekeeping operations in Florida right now, and there is no control available. US beekeepers are begging for formic, and we know that formic is of limited usefulness. I know these mites will be a huge problem when they get here, so we want to slow the spread as much as possible.
For that reason I have been reconsidering my previous mild acceptance of the idea of bringing in US packages. I now think it would not be prudent unless they were allowed only in a quarantined area and managed under a strong protocol. Unfortunately the very people who want the US packages the most are the very people who have proven clearly that they will not obey rules or respect others, and therefore, the authorities are reluctant to deal with them.
allen
As for (relatively) safe packages, we have them available now, from Australia and New Zealand. I realise that there are some problems there, too, but so far, NZ mites respond to Apistan, and the chance of SHB in Aus pkgs is unknown, but estimated to be far lower than many US mainland pkgs. US mainland pkgs are accused of spreading both mites and SHB, and I suspect there is some truth, in at least some cases.
If packages are permitted into Canada from the US mainland, then IMO, their distribution must be controlled and limited to specific closed regions. At present, we do not have mechanisms in place, but if the import of US queens is successful this year, then we will have the consensus and mechanisms in place that US packages could conceivably be brought in later -- under strong protocols.
The unfortunate thing is that, just when it looks safe to bring in US packages, a new scourge shows up. This time it is coumaphos resistant mites. They are killing entire US beekeeping operations in Florida right now, and there is no control available. US beekeepers are begging for formic, and we know that formic is of limited usefulness. I know these mites will be a huge problem when they get here, so we want to slow the spread as much as possible.
For that reason I have been reconsidering my previous mild acceptance of the idea of bringing in US packages. I now think it would not be prudent unless they were allowed only in a quarantined area and managed under a strong protocol. Unfortunately the very people who want the US packages the most are the very people who have proven clearly that they will not obey rules or respect others, and therefore, the authorities are reluctant to deal with them.
allen
-
Allen Dick
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1824
- Joined: February 25th, 2003, 10:09 pm
- Location: Swalwell, Alberta
- Contact:
I think that these things will work out over time. Discussions and exchange of observations and opinions -- such as we have here -- help bring people together and overcome misunderstandings.
I know that bringing things into the open has helped a lot, and now, if we can get everyone to co-operate, I think we can work to accommodate everyone.
To the extent that we make friends of our 'enemies', we get whare we want to go, but when we form camps and attack one another instead of the problem, we waste time and energy. Ignorance, personal attacks and forming 'sides' has very much slowed the process in past years.
Some short while ago, I had some complaints about how Saskatchewan was treating Albertans' (and British Columbians') genuine concerns. I have been very, very pleased to see that they responded in a very adult fashion and have been very helpful.
If we can get every part of this discussion onto an adult level and shine some light on all of the hidden aspects of these questions, then we will make lots of headway.
I think we are doing that here and now. Lets hope everyone gets on board.
allen
I know that bringing things into the open has helped a lot, and now, if we can get everyone to co-operate, I think we can work to accommodate everyone.
To the extent that we make friends of our 'enemies', we get whare we want to go, but when we form camps and attack one another instead of the problem, we waste time and energy. Ignorance, personal attacks and forming 'sides' has very much slowed the process in past years.
Some short while ago, I had some complaints about how Saskatchewan was treating Albertans' (and British Columbians') genuine concerns. I have been very, very pleased to see that they responded in a very adult fashion and have been very helpful.
If we can get every part of this discussion onto an adult level and shine some light on all of the hidden aspects of these questions, then we will make lots of headway.
I think we are doing that here and now. Lets hope everyone gets on board.
allen
-
Tom
Well, as reluctant as I am to disagree with Allen at any time, and now the more so as a guest in his house as it were, I doubt that coumophos resistant mites will be the same problem here as in the U.S. In the first place, there has been little coumophos use in Canada and, if the CFIA is true to its attitude (not a reliable thing to be sure) there will be little use of coumophos in Canada for the mites to become resistance. Second, few beekeepers have relied on coumophos in Canada to the extent that some large operations did in the U.S. Partly because we have not also had SMB. Third, in Canada, we have made more opportunity to struggle with alternative treatments like fomic, and I would guess a pretty good percentage of Canadian beekeepers know about the limits to formic from their own experience. So as a reason for limiting cross-border traffic I think this fails. I would also wager that beekeepers will be using alternatives to Apistan and Coumophos before the genetic solution becomes the ideal control we all want.
As for the notion of a package quarantine zone, which I have heard discussed at length in association meetings since the idea was first floated, this seems to me fraught with administrative and practical difficulties. Unless, that is, one proposes all of Alberta and B.C. as the quarantine area. Otherwise there is just so much movement of bees between the two provinces that we don't have enough bee inspectors in the whole country to check the pedigree of all the bees in motion. I think no packages is a preferable policy, partly because there is also a fairness aspect to this question, and partly because drawing that line in the sand or the prairie is a task for Solomon.
Perhaps, since it has been previously referred to in this thread, I should say I hope people know it goes without saying that although I am on the BCHPA executive, the oositions I have expressed are not those of the BCHPA, and that it seems to me this topic needs something of a devil's advocate.
Cheers,
Tom
As for the notion of a package quarantine zone, which I have heard discussed at length in association meetings since the idea was first floated, this seems to me fraught with administrative and practical difficulties. Unless, that is, one proposes all of Alberta and B.C. as the quarantine area. Otherwise there is just so much movement of bees between the two provinces that we don't have enough bee inspectors in the whole country to check the pedigree of all the bees in motion. I think no packages is a preferable policy, partly because there is also a fairness aspect to this question, and partly because drawing that line in the sand or the prairie is a task for Solomon.
Perhaps, since it has been previously referred to in this thread, I should say I hope people know it goes without saying that although I am on the BCHPA executive, the oositions I have expressed are not those of the BCHPA, and that it seems to me this topic needs something of a devil's advocate.
Cheers,
Tom
-
Ian
- Forum Regular
- Posts: 55
- Joined: March 14th, 2003, 3:09 pm
- Location: Mb, Canada
>>I doubt that coumophos resistant mites will be the same problem here as in the U.S. In the first place, there has been little coumophos use in Canada and, if the CFIA is true to its attitude (not a reliable thing to be sure) there will be little use of coumophos in Canada for the mites to become resistance.
I don't think the issue right now is whether reistance will occur within our own stock from our mite treatments, but rather importing the resistance through package bees from the US. And by importing the resistance, we have just accelerated the problem straight across the continent.
Ian
I don't think the issue right now is whether reistance will occur within our own stock from our mite treatments, but rather importing the resistance through package bees from the US. And by importing the resistance, we have just accelerated the problem straight across the continent.
Ian
-
Tom
But that is the whole issue, I think.
If we are not using coumophos, and the CFIA is not going to allow it except in very limited ways, then what difference does it make if we import coumophos resistant mites? None. And so the possibility of importing coumophos resistant mites is a non-issue, or a poor one as a reason for limiting cross-border traffic.
Tom
If we are not using coumophos, and the CFIA is not going to allow it except in very limited ways, then what difference does it make if we import coumophos resistant mites? None. And so the possibility of importing coumophos resistant mites is a non-issue, or a poor one as a reason for limiting cross-border traffic.
Tom
-
JA
-
Guest
There are more qualified people than I to answer this question. However, basically, the usefulness of Apistan was exhausted in these areas first. This takes about 7-12 years of usage, about where we are in Canada now. Coumophos then followed. However, resistance arises in 3-5 years. And, most importantly, before the mites lose their Apistan resistance, so you cannot just go back and forth between the two.
Tom
Tom