Bee-L BS

[Countryboy]

There is an interesting topic on Bee-L right now. It's had 7 responses, and all of them are complete BS. Everyone ignores the real economic factors that are important, and begin applying flawed Western mentality of markets.

What is particularly disturbing is that it shows just how ignorant and uneducated people are to real economic matters.

I do have to give credit to the original poster, as they wanted economic advice, even though the people they were asking didn't seem to be very knowledgeable about economics. (Several years ago in an investing and money management course I took, they said that 4% of the population earned over $100K a year. So who do we normally go to for financial advice? Do we surround ourselves and ask advice of the 4% who know what they are doing - or do we get our financial advice from the 96% who don't have a clue what it really takes to be financially successful?)

This is the post.

Bee liners;

I am looking for a term that is something of an economy of scale but in
reverse. I am working in a developing country on a honey marketing project
and the honey packers can only get 1 kg jars at this time. Their honey is
expensive relative to world prices and per capita income is low so buying a
1 kg jar is out of reach of most consumers. I am making an argument for
helping a jar manufacturer procure a mold for 250, 300, or 400 gram jars (
the glass manufacture only produces beer bottles now, a #1 seller) for a
smaller, more affordable honey package. I am looking for the term to
describe how the smaller honey jar will be more affordable on a per uint
basis (may be more per gram of honey) and should therefore increase sales.

Any help appreciated for this non-economist....
Bill Lord
Louisburg, NC

I can think of economics words to describe this situation. Stupidity, bankruptcy, financial insanity, gonna lose your butt, recipe for disaster, invalid ASSumptions, etc.

I have heard it said (paraphrased) that you can't be successful at business by trying to keep lowering your prices.

When people don't have the money to buy luxury foods, packaging them in smaller quantities will not make them more affordable. Gee, will poor people be more likely to buy caviar if you package it in packages of 3 eggs? Where are the people supposed to get the disposable income to buy honey when they already say that the per capita income is low for people there?

There is a reason honey is expensive in that country. The market for buyers with the disposable income to buy honey is so low that in order for a honey producer to do it profitably, they have to charge higher prices.

If there was a market for honey there, folks would be importing honey from other countries to sell to the people in this developing country at the more expensive prices commanded there.

The problem is that honey is a niche market in this developing economy, which is why the honey is more expensive relative to world prices.

If you want to increase sales, lower the prices of the honey to what the people can afford. Quit trying to make the package smaller. Folks are assuming that people will buy the honey if the per unit price is low enough - they ignore reality that when folks don't have the money to buy something, they go without. It doesn't matter how cheap something is, or how much of a bargain it is - you can't spend money you don't have. The average person in developing economies typically has very little disposable income.
If people on the street there are finding it difficult to procure a wide variety of container sizes, I think it is safe to assume that there is not enough of an economy to have the demand for a variety of size containers.

The honey already comes in a suitable container - sell honey in the comb. Problem solved. The cost of a bottle is factored into the selling price - why would someone with limited disposable income waste money on packaging when they can get the product with natural packaging?

The ability to develop the economy starts with the means of production. The means of production comes before the means of buying stuff. People have to have a way of making money (goods/services) before they have money to buy goods and services from others.

I think the real solution to this would be to teach the people there how to become beekeepers. Through history beekeepers in developing economies have kept bees in low cost methods such as gums, skeps, and top bar hives. The locals can produce honey, and sell the surplus at prices low enough the people around them can afford it. The beekeeper makes money. The people around them can buy honey cheaper. Everyone wins as the standard of living for everyone involved improves.

There is a reason beer bottles are a big seller there. Because the locals want to drown out the lack of economic opportunities they have. That's why the Soviets drank so much vodka.

Don't try to sell stuff folks can't afford. Give them economic opportunities, and they will turn around and buy more things. The demand for goods is always there - it is the means of buying the goods that is the limiting factor.

[Allen Dick]

A kilo is a lot of honey for many folks, even those who can afford it. Although some, like me, buy in bulk where possible, most buy a few days' supply of most items and that is especially true where advanced food storage is not available and a daily trip to the market is routine.

A problem in some countries is that the container costs more than the contents. I recall being given a litre of beer in rural Mexico about twenty years ago. Our benefactors would take no money for the beer, but were most grateful to get the bottle back.

My immediate thought was to sell honey in plastic bags. In addition to jugs and cardboard containers, milk is sold in tough plastic bags here in Canada.

Bags are cheap and can be arranged to contain varying amounts without retooling.

[arsya]

Omg! IS it true? http://keepingbee.org/honey-bees-disapp ... rmination/

[Countryboy]

I'm beginning to understand why Bee-L has so much political propaganda and misinformation. I agree with Allen's comments when he quit posting on Bee-L - the problem is the moderation there.

I've had several posts to Bee-L that were not approved. The Bee-L guidelines are posted here http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/agr ... faqs/bee-l
So moderation should be fairly cut and dried. However, I would have posts not get approved for no apparent reason, while other posts containing misinformation and political propaganda would be approved. The only logical explanation is that Bee-L moderation has their own personal political agenda. Posts are approved even if they are emotionally based misinformation (not fact or logic based) or if the political views match the Bee-L moderator's personal political views. If someone disagrees with irrational, emotionally charged posts using logic and reason, those posts are not approved.

Simply put, you are not allowed to disagree with the Bee-L misinformation. If you do, your posts will not be approved.

Last week, I had posts that were not approved that pointed out flaws in others legal arguments about how property rights affect beekeeping. (Did you know that courts will not order beekeepers to keep their bees beyond flight distance of a farmer's fields so the bees can't come in contact with the farmer's crops? That was a case in California. So much for beekeepers thinking they have a right to bee pasture on others lands.)
Folks were allowed to post misinformation about what free markets are, but I was not allowed to provide correct information and how it applies to beekeeping. Go figure.
I had a thread not get approved that was a poll to see if there were patterns in beekeepers personality types. (There are 16 different personality types. I'm curious if any personality types or type groups are attracted to beekeeping.) Each personality type processes information and communicates differently, so understanding personality types and how they communicate will help reduce misunderstandings on Bee-L.)
I had a post not get approved on the thread about the beekeeper who made the greatest contribution. I vote Prokopovych. He invented the queen excluder and the movable frame hive. (Root and Langstroth studied Prokopovych.) He had 60 scientific papers published, and he started a college for beekeepers. In his lifetime he had over 6000 hives - 2500 was the most known at one time. He is the father of commercial beekeeping.
Another poster made an emotional argument that was complete BS about the importance of honeybees pollinating native plants in the US. It's BS because honeybees are not native to North America - none of our native plants need honeybee pollination. Of course, this fact is not allowed to be shared on Bee-L. Heaven forbid someone post factual information.
Another poster had made an emotionally charged post full of misinformation, bad-mouthing commercial beekeepers and saying they only paid minimum wage. I submitted a reply of my experience working for a commercial beekeeper, and earning about $20 an hour for the season. I commented that Allen Dick had in his diary an old help wanted ad for extracting workers, and it paid more than minimum wage 10+ years ago. Another beekeeper in Vermont hires "interns" to help him. He provides housing and I think starts out about $12 an hour. Commercial beekeepers know that workers can get an easy job at WalMart making minimum wage. Commercial beekeepers want quality workers, and they are willing to pay more than minimum wage. But, this was yet another post that was not approved for submission on Bee-L.

So I emailed the Bee-L moderator, asking why my posts were not approved. They were informed discussion of beekeeping issues, and they complied with the Bee-L guidelines. Here is the first email I sent:

Is there a reason my recent posts have not been approved, even though they are bee related and do not violate the Bee-L guidelines posted here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/agr ... faqs/bee-l Have the Bee-L guidelines changed? Or has Bee-L turned into a good ole boy club, where good ole boy trolls are allowed to promulgate tons of misinformation that is accepted as infallible, and no one is allowed to speak contrary?

I would like to remind you personally of Guideline #8, as you have been approving posts by others that contain a lot of misinformation. (Of course, to a bystander looking in, it appears that Bee-L moderation does NOT want "informed" discussion of beekeeping topics. It appears you want MISINFORMATION about beekeeping topics, especially if it promotes your own personal political agenda.)

It's a shame to see Bee-L turned into a garbage pit of misinformation and BS. Unfortunately, there are gullible beekeepers who will trust you to vet posts, and they will believe approved posts are "informed," even though the posts contain a lot of misinformation.

I know - you're just going to use the disclaimer on #8 that moderators don't know it all. Maybe if you remembered that little disclaimer, it might possibly open your eyes to the possibility that other people might have good information, even if you disagree with them.

Then again, it requires intelligence to recognize that the legal and political foundations have great affect on the beekeeping culture. Ignoring the political and legal foundations is like building a house with no foundation. It looks good for a moment, but is worthless and falls apart. (Reminds me of a LOT of the misinformation on Bee-L.)

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
Orwell had another good quote - Freedom is the right to tell other people what they do not want to hear.

The Bee-L moderator did reply. Here is his reply.

Is there a reason my recent posts have not been approved, even though they are bee related and do not violate the Bee-L guidelines posted here: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/agr ... faqs/bee-l Have the Bee-L guidelines changed? Or has Bee-L turned into a good ole boy club, where good ole boy trolls are allowed to promulgate tons of misinformation that is accepted as infallible, and no one is allowed to speak contrary?

I would like to remind you personally of Guideline #8,


This is where I stopped reading. I have not requested of you to remind me of anything. I haven't approved your posts because I don't want to take BEE-L down the path you want to take it. Truthfully I haven't slogged through the stuff you've written. As with this email, I haven't been able to read past through the first paragraph or two. And I don't want to spend my holiday time wrangling with emails to people who want to remind me how to moderate a list that I have been moderating for nearly 30 years.

That's the short of it.

He plainly admits that he doesn't like the arguments I make. (It doesn't matter if my arguments are based in factual information and use reason and logic. He just doesn't allow me to disagree with the posts he agrees with.)
And as a moderator, it is his job to read posts that are submitted for approval. If he won't read past the first paragraph or two, that is incompetence. (And when he approves posts with misinformation, and disapproves posts with factual information, that is ignorance.)

So I replied to him...

I accept your admission of incompetence and ignorance.

Since you seem to think you know everything, would you mind having the courtesy of explaining where you think I am taking Bee-L, and where you want Bee-L headed? Or maybe just grow a pair of balls and start moderating the Bee-L list according to the established guidelines, and not moderating according to your own personal idealogy.
You most certainly DO need reminded of things, nor is it your place to request me to remind you of anything. Who do you think you are? Bee-L is SUPPOSED to be an informed discussion of beekeeping, and NOT and Aaron Morris approved misinformation of beekeeping. Just remember that karma can come back to bite you - if you suppress truthful discussion of beekeeping issues, others will create alternative discussion lists, and you may end up moderating a discussion list without many people.

Perhaps if you took the time to gain some real world education, you might realize that the real world of beekeeping is different than what many Bee-L posters want to portray.

I can see why your friends like Allen Dick won't post on Bee-L anymore...moderation is a problem. Just because you have been doing it for 30 years, doesn't mean you do a good job, or even a competent job.

Shame on you. You should be ashamed of yourself.

The Bee-L moderator sent me a reply...

Stay the fuck out of my mailbox.

All posts submitted to Bee-L go to that email inbox. That's just part of the job. So I sent him this final email.

If you don't like the responsibilities of being the Bee-L moderator, feel free to remove yourself from that position. When you accepted the responsibilities of being the Bee-L moderator, you accepted the willingness to receive emails from Bee-L users. If you don't like it, get over it or get out of being the moderator.

Please understand that I am writing you only as the Bee-L moderator, and if you were not the moderator, you would not be receiving my emails. I am not writing to you as a person. I try to associate myself with a better class of people. While most beekeepers are pretty good folks, you are evidence that there are still a few scoundrels too.

The Bee-L moderator replied...

I've written filters for my mailbox. Mail you send to me will be deleted, unseen.

A little while later, I get another email...

You have been removed from the BEE-L list (Informed Discussion of
Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology) by Aaron Morris

I am a firm believer that sunlight is an excellent disinfectant.

I am also a firm believer that until Bee-L moderators put aside personal political agendas, and moderate according to the guidelines, Bee-L can be viewed as nothing more than the Misinformed discussion of beekeeping.

I also have to wonder how many other posters have had factual, rational posts about beekeeping not get approved, or get removed from the list. I've seen older posts in the archives of people who use reason and logic, but they often disappear from Bee-L.
The posters making irrational, emotionally charged posts and spreading misinformation seem to congregate on Bee-L and never go away.
And this is the exact opposite of how an informed discussion group should operate.
The proof is in the pudding. You reap what you sow...one only needs to look at the results of Bee-L to see what Bee-L moderation has been sowing.