Ammonium Nitrate

[cam bishop]

Interesting idea. I have 20 virgin queens coming around 6/1 - I got some ammonium nitrate and plan to try it. It will lower my queen cost considerably and still allow me to get good genetics. Please let us know how it works for you, since it appears you'll use it before I do.

[Allen Dick]

I'll do that. The date of queen arrival is not definite yet, though. If they don't come on time, I may alter my plans.

I'm contemplating gassing all the splits I make -- just like any real beekeeper would. The temptation is great since if it works, and I do trust Juanse, that means much less handling and greater simplicity.

[cam bishop]

I found it interesting that he gassed multiple hives to make them forget where they were getting their pollen so they would return to blueberries, rather than fruit trees. His reports, and I agree, he is a very accomplished beekeeper, indicate that it worked quite well. He reports about 90% on introducing virgins which is about as good as a mated queen.

[Allen Dick]

Check out Bob Hack's comments on today's diary.

[cam bishop]

I wonder, though, how to keep the pellets from moving around when tipping the smoker, as any I have examined are small and rounded.

Bob Harrison also uses pellets. He says he puts a screen in the smoker to keep them from coming out when he tips the smoker.

[Allen Dick]

Yeah. That's a thought. I think the AN would drop through it OK, but I wonder if the screen would react chemically with the AN?

Juanse says that AN eats up the smoker, but I gathered that the heat output is the problem. Don't know. Could be a chemical reaction with metal, too.

I have asked Bob Hack what he does. Juanse did not say, but I imagine that bark is more likely to stay still.

[cam bishop]

Please post Bob's reply. Didn't know he used it. I wonder how many beekeepers use it and we're not aware?

[Allen Dick]

OK. Will do. His first message is in the diary.

[Vance G]

Would it work to make a little supplimental container for the AN ala soup can and set that on a hot bed of pine needles or pellets or burlap to save wear and tear on the smoker? I am fond of my old one that would outlast several of the current ones given no super heating. I am reticent to go shopping for AN! We have the morons from TSA to contend with. My luck they would just finish inspecting diapers at the airport and come to check me out!

[cam bishop]

I bought 4# of pure stuff on line. Looks like it will do about 100 nucs. I'll know better after I use it. At that small an amount it shouldn't cause any waves in the government.

[Allen Dick]

> Would it work to make a little supplimental container for the AN...?

I doubt that a can with a bottom would work, but some people do find a tin can that fits snuggly inside their smoker, cut the top and bottom off, and make a liner. A can that is sightly large can can be slit with tin snips so that it slides in nicely and expands to fit perfectly.

> I bought 4# of pure stuff on line...

Out of curiosity, where online did you find it and what was the cost?

[cam bishop]

It was $5.00 US per pound + delivery. Delivery was $14.00. a little pricey but hard to find and I didn't trust the stuff in the box stores. I got it from http://scienceforyou.net/

[Allen Dick]

Thanks. I got a 50 lb bag at the nearby farm fertilizer outlet for $30. Probably not as pure and probably has clay on it. There is one bag left and I wonder if I should buy it. The stuff is getting rare.

50 lbs will last me several lifetimes, used on tablespoon at a time, but I have friends and if this catches on, the usage may go up.

The online purchase seems quite reasonable if you save even one queen or split with it, and you know it is pure,

[cam bishop]

One of my nucs went Queenless. Have a mated queen coming in tomorrow or Friday. I'll try out the AN and report back. Should be a good test.

[Vance G]

Per you split plans Mr. Dick, Are you at all concerned about moving the bees in a semi comatose state with fresly moved frames jangling and crunching some? This is not a criticism, but a question? Do the bees get back on their feet and just stay groggy for a while allowing this? I am thinking about what you are planning, but feel like I lack information.

[Allen Dick]

My understanding is that they recover quickly, but do not immediately fly. If bees have fallen down, then they will prevent swinging, I suspect.

I'll have to observe and I'll have a second smoker handy. Also,my frames don't swing much. We used to move bees all the time and had very little kill from swinging frames.

I'll only be moving a half-mile or so, and one pallet at a time using the forklift, so the hives should stay level.

Here is a quote from Juanse, posted to the diary on the 20th:

"As said on a previous post the effect on the bees last between 5 to 10 minutes. It is impressive. The first time you probably think you have kill them all. If you are planning to inspect the frames, it is wise to separate them before sleeping the bees, other wise you will smash them."

[cam bishop]

Queen came in but I was very busy giving nucs to my buyers, so I just put her on the top bars. Didn't think about it for a couple of days and then it would not have been a good test. She was released today. So, I'll have to wait until my virgins come to try it. I also want to fired up a test run before I use it to see how it goes and what I'll need to do. Also need to run to the store and get some wood pellets. Seems like that is the thing to use with AN

[Allen Dick]

Here are some ideas on the heating of ammonium nitrate to produce nitrous oxide.
The ironing temperatures are cited to show that a household appliance could be used to provide controlled temperatures. Of course, the bee smoker works well from what I've heard, but someone might want to build a cleaner N20 generator. It occurs to me that the electric smokers on the market might work, too.

From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide

Nitrous oxide is most commonly prepared by careful heating of ammonium nitrate, which decomposes into nitrous oxide and water vapor.[14] The addition of various phosphates favors formation of a purer gas at slightly lower temperatures. One of the earliest commercial producers was George Poe in Trenton, New Jersey.[15]

NH4NO3 (s) → 2 H2O (g) + N2O (g)

This reaction occurs between 170 and 240 °C, temperatures where ammonium nitrate is a moderately sensitive explosive and a very powerful oxidizer. Above 240 °C the exothermic reaction may accelerate to the point of detonation, so the mixture must be cooled to avoid such a disaster. Superheated steam is used to reach reaction temperature in some turnkey production plants.[16]

Downstream, the hot, corrosive mixture of gases must be cooled to condense the steam, and filtered to remove higher oxides of nitrogen. Ammonium nitrate smoke, as an extremely persistent colloid, will also have to be removed. The cleanup is often done in a train of three gas washes; namely base, acid and base again. Any significant amounts of nitric oxide (NO) may not necessarily be absorbed directly by the base (sodium hydroxide) washes.

The nitric oxide impurity is sometimes chelated out with ferrous sulfate, reduced with iron metal, or oxidised and absorbed in base as a higher oxide. The first base wash may (or may not) react out much of the ammonium nitrate smoke. However, this reaction generates ammonia gas, which may have to be absorbed in the acid wash.
[edit] Other routes

The direct oxidation of ammonia may someday rival the ammonium nitrate pyrolysis synthesis of nitrous oxide mentioned above. This capital-intensive process, which originates in Japan, uses a manganese dioxide-bismuth oxide catalyst:[17]

2 NH3 + 2 O2 → N2O + 3 H2O

Higher oxides of nitrogen are formed as impurities. In comparison, uncatalyzed ammonia oxidation (i.e. combustion or explosion) goes primarily to N2 and H2O.

Nitrous oxide can be made by heating a solution of sulfamic acid and nitric acid. Many gases are made this way in Bulgaria.[citation needed][18]

HNO3 + NH2SO3H → N2O + H2SO4 + H2O

There is no explosive hazard in this reaction if the mixing rate is controlled. However, as usual, toxic higher oxides of nitrogen are formed.

Also from Wikipedia:

[Vance G]

Is the nitrous oxide used in funny cars the same chemical? Would it be easier just to get a bottle of the compressed gas?

[Allen Dick]

It is the same gas, but online research seemed to indicate that there are dangerous impurities denaturing in the auto product. There is some disagreement, though, so if anyone wants to find out the truth from a source of the gas, what the truth is, I'd appreciate it.