4.9 Frames

[Countryboy]

Mann Lake offers both the plastic small cell frames and the Rite Cell frames. I think the small cell frames are 4.95 mm and the Rite-Cell are still around 5.4.

I like the small cell frames due to being able to raise more brood per frame. This is my primary consideration. A cluster can only cover a limited volume in cold weather, and more brood in a given area means the cluster can cover more brood in cold snaps, allowing the bees the potential to build up faster.

I make no claims as to the effect of small cell combs on varroa one way or the other, but I doubt it is any worse than 5.2 or 5.4. If it does help with varroa, then to me it would just be a secondary benefit to the increased brood per frame.

What its the effect of mixing in one brood box, combs on 4.9mm foundation with combs on 5.4mm foundation? Does it matter?

Does anyone know?

In my brood boxes you will find a mix of Mann Lake's small cell frames, foundationless natural cell comb frames, Pierco, Duragilt, and a little bit of 5.4 combs. I try to put the smallest celled frames in the center of the box, progressing to the largest celled frames as the outermost frames in the box. In my observations of feral combs and natural cell combs, bees build the core of the broodnest combs the smallest cells, and the largest cells are overhead and to the sides of the cluster. The bees seem to prefer raising brood in the smaller cells, and seem to prefer storing honey in the larger cells. I try to duplicate this arrangement when I set up my brood boxes.

It works for me. I have not seen any problems with mixing 4.9 with 5.2 or 5.4 frames, but it should be noted that I do not mix at random. I have very specific placement of combs in the box.

[Countryboy]

The foundation surface of the PF100s tends to be bowed to one side, which is annoying and does not allow the use of 10 combs in the brood nest. The cells on one side will be too shallow for proper brood rearing. That is, unless you face all of the bowed surfaces in the same direction.

From what I understand, this warping was a problem with some of the first production runs. Mann Lake got the kinks worked out, and the frames are much better now. I have 300-400 of these frames in hives, and have been running them for about 3 years with no problems. I am one of those beekeepers who trim the shoulders to 1 1/4 width, and squeeze all the frames together, and I have not found any deep Mann Lake PF series frames that were too shallow to raise brood in.

They are a cheap flimsy frame, but warping is usually less than 1/16th of an inch. I can live with that.

I have more of a problem with Pierco frames if they are in sunlight very long, especially if they aren't drawn out yet. They often twist pretty bad.

I should probably add - I have only used the black Mann Lake frames. I think they are PF-105. I have no experience using the white deep frames. I think the whites are PF-100. I don't know if there is any chemical composition difference in the plastic, or if color is the only difference between them.

[Allen Dick]

> In my observations of feral combs and natural cell combs, bees build the core of the broodnest combs the smallest cells, and the largest cells are overhead and to the sides of the cluster.

If that is the case, then, when building comb, they must necessarily start with larger cells at the attachment pooint and then reduce size as they build the comb downwards. Interesting.

[cam bishop]

Allen,

I see that all the time in my foundationless frames.

[Countryboy]

> In my observations of feral combs and natural cell combs, bees build the core of the broodnest combs the smallest cells, and the largest cells are overhead and to the sides of the cluster.

If that is the case, then, when building comb, they must necessarily start with larger cells at the attachment pooint and then reduce size as they build the comb downwards. Interesting.

If you look at a Pierco frame, the very top row of cells, and sometimes 2 rows, is larger cells. Often, along the outer edges, they will have a row of larger cells also. I think this is due to it being a more efficient use of wax to attach the cells to the top and side bars.

With a foundationless frame, they will start out with larger cells like that, and then the cells gradually get smaller near the bottom of the comb. The taller the span of comb you have, the more visible it is. If you are looking at a 3 foot tall piece of comb from a feral hive, the difference in cell size if very pronounced.

Also, the size gradually changes from the smallest cells at the center of the broodnest, to the cells in the outer positions. You may not see much of a difference to the naked eye of the smallest cells in frames 4, 5, and 6, but if you compare one of those middle frames to a frame in the 1, 2, 9, 10, or 11 positions, the difference in cell size is noticeable. To do a test like this, it is easiest to put a box of foundationless frames under the current broodbox with bees. (Or start a package of bees in a box of foundationless frames.)

Now that you are back to being a hobbyist, this might be an experiment you want to try. Just remember to use a good comb guide, like turning a wedge top bar 90 degrees and tacking it back in. Also, bees often like to curve the ends of long combs to help with structural strength, and comb can jump from frame to frame at the ends if you don't keep an eye on it. Just straighten the combs with your thumbs while the wax is soft. (This is a benefit of using foundation - the bees build straight combs.)