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Thursday, November
20th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
Should I post the weather for Alberta? Or Laguna
Beach, CA, where I am today? Or neither?
Not much to write today, but I have been active
on BEE-L. More later...
|
067432 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067440 |
Re: Genetic compatibility effects on caste
determination |
|
067441 |
Personal Attacks |
|
067452 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067466 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067472 |
Re: Law of the Survivor |
|
067475 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067494 |
Re: Personal Attacks |
Friday, November
21st, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
|
A wise man's question
contains half the answer.
Solomon Ibn Gabirol |
|
067494 |
Re: Personal Attacks |
|
067475 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067472 |
Re: Law of the Survivor |
Saturday, November
22nd, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
Today's BEE-L Posts:
|
067494 |
Re:
Personal Attacks |
|
067496 |
Comparing Pollen Patties |
|
067500 |
Walk-Away Splits |
|
067502 |
Re:
Personal Attacks |
|
067503 |
Re:
Bee-L at its best |
|
067506 |
Re: FW:
The USA is in bad need of new genetics from abroad |
|
067507 |
Re:
Comparing Pollen Patties |
|
> Has anyone done any trials on the
Mann Lake patties compared to
Dadant's
> new super duper Mega Bee™
patties? I will this spring. I thought that we
> could feed half the yard one and half the yard the other. I would kindly
> appreciate any comments. Mann Lake claims that dollar for dollar they are
> a better buy.
Actually, there is a third source you might want
to include in your trials. I should warn you in advance, I am biased. I think
for good reason, but you can decide.
Global
Patties, are located in Montana and Alberta, and supply or have have
supplied patties using a wide variety of materials, including
BeePro™,
FeedBee™,
MegaBee™, and
simple yeast/sugar and
yeast/soy/sugar patties.
All of these, other than FeedBee™, have been
offered with and without pollen as well. All Global patties contain
approximately the same proportion of sugar as well, for preservation and to
encourage consumption.
The formula for the yeast/soy/sugar patties --
the favourite -- is not secret and the details are freely available at
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/ . It is the formula we used
ourselves in the past, and was initially adopted by Frank and Mike, since they
originally began by custom-making patties for me and some friends. Global's
accuracy and on-time delivery were so well appreciated by beekeepers, that they
grew from there into an international supplier with very little advertising.
Interestingly, even after trying many different
highly rated products as patty ingredients, the original simple
yeast/soy/sugar/pollen formula has proven the most popular and enduring product
by far. There may be better formulas out there, but as far as bang for the buck
is concerned, this seems to be the beekeepers' choice.
Besides cost, another big plus is that, with this
simple formula, you know exactly what the ingredients are, and that they are
high quality food-grade, non-spoiling, and fresh. You are not putting
unspecified ingredients into your hive. Moreover, these patties do not dry out
or drip down.
Global is the originator of the rectangular patty
and punctured paper design, which has more recently been widely copied by
competitors (without anyone asking). They are neat and simple to use.
Global is also the price leader. Their low-cost
approach and low margins have driven down the prices of products offered by
competitors. They also custom-make patties, so some proprietary patties offered
on the market have actually originated at their plant.
Patties made up with
BeePro™,
FeedBee™,
MegaBee™ although, and offered as
Global products in the past, failed to maintain sufficient interest to justify
being made in the volumes Global requires, and have been dropped from the price
list in the US, although Global will make up anything you want on request,
assuming the minimum batch size is met. You actually might save money by buying
a competitor's ingredients and having the patties made by Global!
These various feed combinations that Global has
made up in the past, in response to requests by beekeepers and/or feed product
owners or dealers, have been widely tested in Canada and the US, by beekeepers,
and the clear choice, if volume of sales is any indication, seems to be for the
yeast/soy/pollen patties. As to be expected, though there are some who prefer
some one or another brand name product, and some have custom batches made.
|
The outcome of any
serious research can only be to make two questions grow where only
one grew before. Thorstein Veblen (1857 - 1929) |
Price, texture, spoilage, drying, and customer
preference for the basic, lower cost patties were the main reasons to drop the
other lines. Even though Global offered them very competitively, the volume
simply was not there.
Beekeepers found overwhelmingly that the simple
yeast/soy/pollen/sugar formula provided the best results per dollar and keep
well both in the box and on the hive. Global requires minimum volumes in any
product they make because they have to source fresh ingredients direct from the
manufacturer if possible, and their policy is to get the finished product to the
beekeeper ASAP, since proteins degrade over time, and warehousing of either
ingredients or patties for anything longer than a few months has been
demonstrated to result in very diminished efficacy of patties! Global's products
are available factory-direct by truckload lots, or from depots around North
America for smaller amounts.
One thing to consider, since you mentioned
Florida, is that there have been reports that pollen patties are enjoyed by
Small Hive Beetles, just as much as by the bees under some circumstances, and
that this must be considered when feeding patties there. I am not entirely
conversant with the details, but asking around might be in order.
One last consideration, when obtaining protein
feeds, be sure to ask how long the ingredients were warehoused and what the
manufacture date of the patties was. I don't know how long it takes for these
things to degrade to where they have absolutely no benefit, but I think a year
is too long for unrefrigerated storage. Maybe some of our scientists can
comment.
In the interests of full disclosure, I continue
to do some consulting for Global and consider them good friends, so I am not
unbiased. I hope this does not sound too much like a commercial, but I am really
impressed with this outfit.
allen
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/misc/pollen/
--- We are indeed much more than what we eat, but what we eat can
nevertheless help us to be much more than what we are.
-- Adelle Davis (1904 - 1974)
* *
* * * *
*
After writing the above article,
checking it over, and inserting the links, I visited the websites of all the
various pollen patty products on the market that I am aware of --
BeePro™,
FeedBee™,
MegaBee™ -- and was amused by the
claims made on these sites. I also notice that all the above have
unspecified ingredients that we are expected to put into our hives in spite of
the fact that we are cautioned by experts to be very careful and know what we
are using due to increasingly intense scrutiny of honey by buyers' labs.
It seems to me that a beekeeper needs to know what is in the feed used, and has
the right to know exactly. There was a case some time back where a
well-trusted supplement was implicated in some suspected honey contamination.
I don't know what the outcome was, and I imagine it was all worked out without
loss, but the precedent is there.
I also have noticed that the
proprietary feeds seem to change ingredients and texture over time, so what is
to say that the data presented in ads actually applies to the current product?
Let me note that Global's site, on
the other hand, does not make any claims beyond stating what the ingredients are
and mentioning some studies that Medhat did, plus providing some articles and
links. They really do not have an axe to grind. They'll make patties
out of anything customers request. (As long as it is food grade and
will not contaminate the premises).
Global's results, low cost, and word
of mouth are more powerful than claims of doubling crops or tripling brood.
We all know that the data behind such claims are often questionable or subject
to interpretation -- or compared to a base situation which may be abnormal.
Sometimes hives die or are pulled out of studies without mention, and secondary
effects may be ignored in a summary. We do not know the freshness of
products used in comparisons, if any, but we can be sure the product being
promoted was fresh and given every advantage.
There is one case of which we
are aware where one product, which contains quite a bit of sugar was
compared in patty form to BeePro™, which does not. BeePro™ patties and
other protein feeds normally require sugar in the patty to encourage
consumption and maintain texture. Of course the bees ate the diet that
was sweet and ate very little of the dry, unsweetened BeePro™ patties.
The owners of the new formula trumpeted this as a proof of their
superiority. In subsequent, independent tests, treating all feeds fairly, no
such advantage was found, and, in fact, the new product was not quite as
good. To my mind, the leading products are pretty similar in efficacy,
so cost, availability, freshness and keeping qualities are the decision
factors, but several of the branded and promoted products are noticeably
inferior and more expensive. We'll be learning more over the next
years.
My personal reason for feeding
supplements is that I found our bee simply were more healthy and our losses over
the year dropped significantly and that the overwintered hives looked better.
We no longer saw stunted bees in the spring. Medhat and others have run
feed comparisons that can give us an idea, but every case is necessarily
different.
Sunday, November
23rd, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
| From
The
mayo Clinic Soy
allergy affects approximately 1 percent of people in the United
States. Soy, also called soya, is among the top eight most common
foods that trigger allergies in children. In many cases soy allergy
starts with a reaction to a soy-based infant formula. Although most
children outgrow soy allergy by age 3, soy allergy may persist and
is becoming more common in adults.
In most cases signs and symptoms of soy allergy are mild. Severe
allergic reactions are more common with other food allergens than
with soy, but in rare cases, soy allergy can cause a
life-threatening allergic reaction (anaphylaxis). Deaths linked to
soy allergy have occurred in people who also had both severe peanut
allergy and asthma. You can reduce your risk of having an allergic
reaction to soy by knowing as much as you can about soy allergy and
how to avoid soy-containing products
(more) |
Now I am wondering about soy
allergy. I realise that maybe I should just let sleeping dogs
lie, but I do recall the time when we though using
sulfathiazole in beehives was harmless. As the references indicate, it
later turned out that the traces were significant for some people and the levels
getting into honey were higher than assumed in some cases. The result was
seized loads of honey that wound up being dumped at the beekeepers' expense.
I sometimes see on food labels these
days the warning, "may contain traces of peanuts", and similar paragraphs
simply because the food was, is, or may be at some future time, prepared in the
same building where peanuts products are handled, even if they are not on the
same line -- or possibly since the manufacturer cannot know the details of all
sourced ingredients, or wants the flexibility to change suppliers.
Should beekeepers and packers also
start considering potential allergens and mentioning exposure to soy, yeasts,
and, for that matter everything within flight distance that the bees might bring
home? At some point the possibilities boggle the imagination.
I really have no idea if any traces
of soy remain in hives, and if so, for how long, and, for that matter, I assume
bees visit soy for pollen and that soy dust blows around the country in season.
Should patties, like treatments, be removed before the honeyflow? Since
the feed is actually placed in the hive, and uneaten scraps could
conceivably get into the honey at extracting time there is a potential for
'contamination', so-called, even if the 'contaminant' is itself food-approved.
I doubt a significant amount would ever be involved, especially when specks are
diluted by tonnes of honey, but we need to think about every imaginable risk
these days.
|
The important thing is
not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing.
One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of
eternity, of life, of the marvellous structure of reality. It is
enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery
every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.
Albert Einstein (1879 - 1955) |
As far as I know, all the popular
bee feeds contain some soy, although some say not, but do not state what they do
contain and may be playing with weasel words if they use derivatives of soy.
Some people are also allergic to yeasts, so there you go. What is safe?
Processed honey is fine filtered, but honey at the farm gate is not.
People with a critical allergy should be and usually are very aware where they
might encounter the allergen and are therefore very careful.
Are soy, yeasts and other feeds the
least of our worries? After all, beehives and honey contain pollen,
and that is one of the most common allergens! Will we ever get to the point of
posting warnings on honey? I hope not.
And what would we do if we do not
even know what goes into our bee feeds? As far as I am concerned, every
animal feed should list the ingredients for all to see. I'd assume that
any products labelled as food-grade should be OK as bee feed, but, an
animal grade rating is not sufficient.
Frankly, I do not think there is a
real risk, but it might be a good study for someone.
Monday, November
24th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
Bob Harrison on queen cells...
When we raise cells in Texas we use
the jenter system and need around 6-10 systems. My eyes (as well as
my partners ) are not the best so we have dropped grafting except
for the eggs the queen lays between the cups. The problem with the
jenter system is you need the comb cell box drawn before using to
raise queens. A mistake often made by first time cell raisers trying
to raise cells on new plastic with the cells undrawn.
Also cups need cleaned before reuse
by the bees or you can simply use new cups (which is what we do if
in a hurry).
Timing is the key to success plus
prolific queens when caged and super strong cell builder and cell
finisher colonies. if a strong flow is not on then you need to
provide excellent nutrition for all parts of the operation.
The only queen rearing system I have
use (other than grafting) has been the jenter. Others will need to
comment on the Mann lake system which is advertised to raise I think
four times as many cells as the jenter.
I think because cells are so cheap
most would rather simply buy cells. Would you find the time to raise
cells if cells were around ten bucks a cell?
Cells can be pricey if cells are not
viable ( 50% is not uncommon) or poorly raised and the queens are
dinks and soon superceded.
Cell raisers usually start about
twice as many as ordered so when you get 90% raised (happens at
times ) then you look for a place to sell those cells as if not sold
or used most are tossed.
Cell use 101 for commercial beeks:
1. order cells but far more than you
need. 125% ? 150%? if candling.
2. Pick up cells from cell raiser
soon after sealed and transport in a Styrofoam heated incubator if
possible (12 volt to truck cigar lighter) to your location. Use wet
sponge for humidity.
3. at your location have a G.O.F. egg
incubator (used $125- 250 but can be homemade as all the parts can
be purchased from the maker) set and ready for the cells ( takes
usually 48 hours to get temp & humidity correct) On mine I use the
timer which turns the heat off and on with a single degree of
accuracy . I used to hatch exotic bird eggs for my self and others
and found the better timer worth the money over the wafer type.
4. carefully place the cells in the
incubator. You should have around 3 days to make your splits ready.
You obviously can leave the cells in the cell finisher but using an
incubator makes raising a large number of cells faster.
4.a Havoc will happen if you get
queens hatching the the incubator. If happens catch and cage the
virgins and place in queen cages and release after a few hours.
simply releasing right away does not produce the best takes in my
opinion but others may have had better results.
5. Place the cells in the nucs after
dark the day before emergence and candle each cell. Toss cells which
queens show no movement when candled . If you candle night is the
time to candle fast.
6. Important: Do not move the nucs
for at least two weeks for best take or until queen is laying solid
patterns. It is my opinion bees will blame the move on the new queen
and supercede her until they have totally accepted her. Others may
disagree or perhaps disagree with everything I have said. If others
on the list use a better method please post as I am here to learn
also.
Also the longer the time the queen is
in the hive laying before shipping north seems to help take. I have
seen 3 out of four hives on a pallet queenless when back in the
north when moved to quickly when using cells. Using mated queens
hives can in my opinion can be moved sooner with success.
Rarely is the take better using cells
than with mated queens but using cells is certainly cheaper. We have
done everything right and still at times end up with less than a 25%
take using cells. Certainly something was not right but whatever the
problem was it was not obvious to us.
hope the above helps!
Sincerely, Bob Harrison |
OK. I've been away, but have had a chance to look
at the videos that were recommended to me.
I don't know if the URLs were posted to BEE-L. If
they were my search did not turn them up, so here they are.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5106409524033235587
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6129663215037522414
They are long, low res and unedited --
apparently, so for those who are short of spare time, I recommend going to about
3/4ths to 7/8ths through the second one. That's where it gets good.
Priceless, actually.
And I thought I was being hard on
Dee and the recent state of BEE-L...
Thought you would like these videos.
The links were posted here a good while back by [a list member] to
illustrate how great it all was. He sounds more like an enthralled
amateur than anything else to me. My telling moment came early
in the Mendoza one, when Dee is counting whilst the commentary is
fulsome in its praise. You can clearly hear her in the back
say '10 alive' and am not sure but think I heard 6 before and four
new ones. But it's a great success. Apparently. And you better
accept that. In the bit opposite the video on the original location
we were sent to there is a tiny snippet of text that states this
group to be 'typical' of the groups they saw.
Other things jumped out too.
4 boxes of brood??? Even if only HALF
full that's still 140,000 cells of brood. divide by 21
days.........that's 6667 eggs a day!
120K bees in those hives? Nonsense,
my estimate would be 45 to 60K, and that's in the big ones only.
Boxes of honey lifted by arms only
and no body balancing adjustments? Even I lean away a bit to stop
myself falling over and I am built like Godzilla's overweight twin.
And those bees!!!! Plumes of them
around the face mask after the warm breath. Fine if you KNOW no-one
will ever come nearby, but I shudder to think what might happen to
any animal or person (horse riders especially) who inadvertently
strayed into this scene. I hope her public liability insurance is
both up to date AND the insurers aware of the risks.
That swarm. Was it a virgin? Did they
know? How the heck will it mate with an excluder in the way? Why not
just give it a bar of larvae to pin it and take it on to the next
place? (We do that a lot) As for them having already found the queen
and were flying in? Not what I saw. Where were the bees on the front
with their nasonov organs in the air fanning like crazy? Only then
do you know they are attracting the rest in.
Junk. Most of the gear is
junk.......junk boxes......junk combs ..junk lying about. Sadly any
bee inspector [in my area] coming across that lot would be
apoplectic and wondering if he was going to need to burn the lot.
Probably here they are TOO fussy but nonetheless it does not have
anything like the aura of a successful commercial outfit.
I don't like the 'weak old woman' bit
either. She may be of mature years but anything but weak, and in any
case this should not be an issue introduced for sympathy or whatever
as it completely irrelevant to the key question, 'Does it work?'
I am not posting this on the list as
it would just be seen as provocation and a deliberate personal
attack on the characters involved. However if that lot was mine I
would call it a disaster, not quite the end as there is stock to
breed back from, but would be looking at a couple of seasons build
back time again.
Way way years back I christened this
movement in its Arizona roots AHBDS, as it was in some way tied in
to protecting the states ability to continue selling queens etc out
of state. It got out of hand for whatever reason and that's where we
are today. The last two words of the acronym are 'denial syndrome'
btw.
Have fun. I for one am enjoying
having you back and productive. Its a return to the real world away
from the land of fluffy bunnies and navel contemplators we were
suffering for ages. I have had e-mails from a few subscribers
welcoming us both back and hoping all will get back to the way it
was, to quote one guy, 'before the kooks moved in'.
I would add the smartasses to that
too, dare say we could all name a couple of those. |
My comments:
Actually, the equipment is quite sound and free
of any apparent disease. I looked when I was there, and the yards are
actually very tidy unless
coatamundi or vandals have knocked things over. I did not see combs or
equipment strewn around. Sure, empty boxes are kept on stands like hives,
but they are clean and in reasonable condition. Check out my pictures at
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/Lusby/default.htm for a better idea. The video
is pretty bad.
Dee's frames are used and re-used and look old,
but they are well-wired and sound. Dee only uses foundation that falls
short of the bottom bar, so most combs may have gaps at the bottom, which looks
bad, but actually works well, and the combs are flat and even.
I have no doubt that Dee is a very good and
knowledgeable beekeeper and runs a pretty good outfit. It may be primitive
by many standards, but it is clean and maintained. My only issues are with
some of her theories, her promotion of panaceas, and her claim to be a
commercial beekeeper. That latter claim is accepted by some, using
criteria different than mine, but I hold that anyone who is not able to turn a
profit in a reasonable time (a decade?) is not commercial, but rather a research
project or a hobby.
I've received a lot of welcoming, thankful
emails, too, and only one abusive one (predictably from a proven slow learner with an attitude), if I don't count one from my perpetual stalker which I
deleted on seeing where it originated.
* *
* * * *
*
Well, I think I'm wasting my time on
BEE-L. I get hassled by the moderator for quoting essential material to
which I am responding, then posts with long messy posts are accepted. I
try to be polite and direct, but, after a long discussion on politeness and
civility, impudence is posted from non-involved individuals with attitude
butting in. In the recent case, the word, "untruth" was used, which
equates in dictionary to, "lie". What's the point of moderation
when such
tactlessness and outright rudeness can be expected, while reasonable words are
cause for rejection? I have spent infinite time discussing this with the list owner
and we simply do not see eye to eye on what constitutes good manners and
appropriate content. Never have. I am not sure we even speak the same
language. Apparently not if, "untruth" is acceptable.
I have been getting surprising support in
welcome-back emails from several of the higher quality contributors, one of
whom has been holding the fort almost single-handedly. Maybe I should
canvas them to come to a new list? At this point, I do not have list
software that I like enough. Some handles the mailing fine, but has a poor
web presence. Forums have good web feel, but do not mail well or accept
email input, at least off the rack. Maybe I need to take another look at
LISTSERV.
* *
* * * *
*
As many know, back in 97/98, I had a list at
one time which repeated the best from BEE-L since BEE-L was such a slough (same
problems as today) but had
some good material, and from
sci.agriculture.beekeeping.
Best of Bee overtook BEE-L
in circulation quite quickly, but I gave it up when I found it was overpowering
my server. I may just start it up again. I see nobody is posting
in the
Honey Bee World Forum, although at one time, before I closed it for a while,
it was pretty active. I think that is where I am going to hang out
in future, and here. I have been thinking of using RSS in the forum, since
that makes access easier, or a mailing list mod. I played with one, but it
did not work out. The problem is
maintaining forum software can be a hassle, with constant upgrades required.
* *
* * * *
*
OK. I set up a new list --
HoneyBeeWorld.
I am using Mailman again. It is fine. I was just hoping for a fancier
looking web page to go with the list. Maybe I'll write one eventually.
To subscribe to the
HoneyBeeWorld
list, just
fill out the form at
this link or send email to
HoneyBeeWorld-request@honeybeeworld.com, saying subscribe in the subject
line. Give it a
try. No Spam, and you can unsubscribe at any time.
Hey! It works. I am now
subscribed at three addresses, just to see how it works. Now I need to
make a post.
That's done too, now. We're
off to a start -- or not. A list needs subscribers.
Tuesday, November
25th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
One month until
Christmas.
|
The worst
moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody
to thank.
Dante Gabriel Rossetti (1828 - 1882) |
I actually don't know if
I want to run a list again. When I did Best Of Bee, it was work.
* *
* * * *
*
My son is a software
developer, and in the dim and distant past, I wrote and maintained software. He
is working on setting up a business, and I am wondering if I should get
involved.
I recall having been
offered a $90K/yr UNIX job back in the mid-90s and turning it down because I lived
on the farm, ran a commercial bee operation and had kids in school, AND because
I would have had to move to the Los Angeles area.
Internet in those days
was mostly dialup -- if you could find a connection at all. I was
connected through The Calgary Unix Users Group,
sixty miles from home, but fortunately not long distance. That was before
even AOL came along, and Compuserve was the big thing, with their discussion boards being popular, as
were USENET and CUUG's own forums. BBSs, like
Andy Nachbaur's were also reachable by telephone modem, but not via the
Internet.I
Anyhow, here I am
sitting less than an hour south of LA, in Laguna Beach, and it is quite nice here.
Jon and Sarah and the kids live here now. Not that
I would stay, but, with Internet, I can work from anywhere in the world. We'll see.
* *
* * * *
*
I've received a few
emails today about my decision to quit BEE-L again. The BEE-L
related messages incoming today, some were sad and worried, others were
downright humorous, and one included quotes from **** in
which he compared himself to Jesus and tried to correct perfect grammar, while
making ad hominem attacks about things he does not understand. Actually, it
would be funny if it were not so sad. If I ever needed proof that my
decision was the correct one...
I did get one post for
moderation on my new list. It was from a Spammer. Of course it was
not approved.
So far the response to
the new list is underwhelming.
There is new traffic at
the
Honey Bee World Forum.
Wednesday, November
26th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
We're having a storm, as
I write (after midnight). The wind is blowing hard and and the rain is pouring.
That's what they say about California. It never rains, but when it does, it
pours.
7:30 AM: The sun is
shining this morning, but I see the gazebo was flattened by the storm.
We spent the day at
Disneyland.
Thursday, November
27th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
Another night of rain,
and a sunny bright Thanksgiving Day.
We're mostly visiting,
but I continue to consider the BEE-L problem and work on solutions or
alternatives. For one thing, I have been reading up on
netiquette. I've
spent time on this before, but I have been trying to figure out the Gordian Knot
that is BEE-L. BEE-L is supposed to be an advanced beekeeping list, or at
least that was my understanding, yet relative newbies or one-trick ponies think
they should be able to get on and bore everybody about things that some members
learned decades ago, and about which some may have even written the book.
Netiquette is like
Roberts Rules in that it is a set of rules designed to make public and private
meetings productive. An understanding of the philosophy of both is very
helpful for dealing with the inevitable abuses that arise in any public forum.
A discussion group, if
it is to be more than a wrestling and mud-slinging match much of the time, or be
bogged down in endless repetitions of basics, needs some firm management to ensure that
everyone is heard and that unscrupulous, clueless, inconsiderate, or impatient
parties do not dominate or sabotage the conversation. Also, the regulars should not
have to repeat everything over and over or put up with watching others fall into
that trap and drift away since the list becomes largely a waste of time for the
advanced beekeeper.
We've all been to
meetings which are well managed by a firm, but fair chair, and others where the
moderation has been wishy-washy and overly tolerant of abuses and frequent
irrelevant interruptions. I spoke earlier about my concerns about over
the chairing of discussions at the Alberta Beekeepers meeting recently, where there was
some reluctance to allow full discussion, and procedural points were overused
IMO. BEE-L is the opposite case.
|
A good
example happened today. Seeing as I wrote to the owner with my
observations and said it best in that note, here it is:
My initial comment: (edited):
Reading
BEE-L today, it looks so perfect (with the exception of Dee's
redundant and irrelevant interruption and her bit about mites in Oz)
that one would almost think that there is no need for alternate
lists. If BEE-L were always this well behaved (or well-pruned -- I
can't tell from here) there would not be need for new venues, and
more of the respected, scrupulous people would dare to post. Who knows how
many might surface, given a little support and protection?
Running a
list is a bit like gardening. You have to do some weeding or the
flowers get choked out. Dee's post with irrelevant and deceptive
citations has to top the the list of obvious weeds that are growing
in the garden today.
USDA people
monitor BEE-L but I suspect they are not permitted to to participate
ever since a particular list member went on his 'bull in a china
shop' rampages, making wild accusations and misquoting scientists on
sensitive topics -- unchecked -- on BEE-L years back . I saw
it happening, but was unable to stop him. The episode,
although it went unmentioned publicly, put ARS in defence mode and
reduced transparency and freedom of scientists to engage in public
discussions like BEE-L. (I documented this privately, but will
not here - ed.)
From where I
sit, it looks as if the good guys have taken heart lately and are
working to contribute and keep the list working well. Don't
let the side of truth and enlightenment fail in this attempt to
retake the list. They need support from good moderation. |
The reply came saying that
Steve Noble's post was "a gem" and would never have come about if Dee had not
posted her (standard reply to absolutely any topic) message.
|
Progress
isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find
easier ways to do something. --
Robert Heinlein (1907 - 1988), Time Enough For Love |
My response is that the
reply was great, but nothing that all of us have not tried to explain to Dee
over and over, to no avail, and that the list keeps getting dragged down and
dragged back and distracted by such interruptions to the train of thought.
Actually IMO Steve became an unwitting accomplice in an abuse of the list -- a
hijacking, while trying to do the moderators' job -- curbing BS.
I know Dee well
enough to see that she has been deliberately disrupting BEE-L for a
long, long time with interruptions, semi-coherent mumblings, distractions,
bad citations and evasions because she has an agenda. BEE-L is the
antithesis of
all she stands for, since BEE-L is based on science, questioning, diversity, integrated
pest management, rejection of panaceas, and rejection of dogma and of
would-be gurus. Yet she insists on hassling BEE-L, even though she has
her own list with a huge compliment of worshipful adherents and no need to
waste our time. The discussions and opinions that are welcome on BEE-L
don't stand a chance on her list, according to reports. What say, Dee?
|
Cleanliness
and order are not matters of instinct; they are matters of
education, and like most great things, you must cultivate a taste
for them. --
Benjamin Disraeli (1804 - 1881) |
It is IMO a moderator's
duty to prevent thread hijacking and irrelevant interruptions and to keep the
signal-to-noise ratio high.
-
At a public meeting, with reasonable
exceptions, each person gets to speak once on each topic except when bearing
new information, or at the discretion of the chair.
-
In a conversation, such as the one Dee interrupted, a specific person addressed
another specific person in regard to a specific matter, and we should have
expected the second to respond, on topic, not to have the matter hijacked by a
repetitious bit of patent, meaningless, vague propaganda. If
another joined in on topic and was contributing to what was being discussed,
that would be one thing, but interrupting and changing the topic to a pet theory
is another.
-
On a list, constant interruptions lower the tone and cause
people who value their time to leave or quit reading the list.
I am told to just delete
or kill-file offensive posters. Well, that is fine, except that it
seems to me that the moderators' job is to read everything and pass on only
material that is actually valid and useful to the readers. That is what I did when I
moderated, but sometimes other moderators permitted posts which I found
off-topic, badly composed, abusive, or merely untruthful.
The reason for having
moderation rather than having readers do their own weeding -- besides the 1000X
duplication of effort -- is that even if we individually kill-file or delete
some posters, other, worthwhile posters insist on replying to those writers,
often to try to wrestle them to the ground --
negating the purpose of such filters. Besides the list focus shifts
quickly to the lowest common denominator and the discussions become a waste of
time.
The moderators should be the
filters. Besides, it is impossible to expect that any one person who
deserves filtering today will
never have a worthwhile post. There are several I've read that make
this seem idea plausible, but some I thought were beyond hope have proven, in
time, to write thoughtful contributions. Also filters tend to be
unreliable
and can sometimes block totally unintended -- and potentially
important -- material.
It seems to me to be a
huge duplication and waste of effort to have moderators read everything and not
eliminate the noise and chaff from the output. A list should be run, not
to stoke the egos of those on the input end, but to serve the sensibilities of
those reading the output. Scraps and unusable bits should go into the trash bin,
not into the product. Besides, when the standards of acceptance are
enforced and even raised, those wishing to make the list will make the effort,
and most can succeed -- if they try.
At
one time, Best of Bee only carried the best material from BEE-L and that is what
over 700 people read. Those who wished to post replies had to send them to
BEE-L. I don't know how many actually read the raw output from BEE-L, but
BEE-L had about the same number of subscribers as Best of Bee, so I bet most
were set to NOMAIL and just subscribed to be able to post, or occasionally read
the input to see what was filtered.
* *
* * * *
*
We had the traditional
Thanksgiving dinner, and walked on the beach.
Friday, November
28th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
I woke up this morning
to find this in my inbox:
| Dear Subscribers,
As Moderator and list owner I
have been taking excessive flack lately from all sides regarding the
care and feeding of BEE-L.
BEE-L cannot be all things to
all people, nothing can. This is a repeat conversation, it is a
perennial topic in the archives. Each time things come to a head I
remind everyone that although I would like to accommodate everyone,
it comes down to as I already stated, BEE-L cannot be all things to
all people, so when push comes to shove I have to insist that BEE-L
follow the owner's perception of what BEE-L should be. My ideals for
BEE-L are posted at
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/default.htm where among
other things readers will find the guidelines for posting at
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/guidelines.htm which
have been suggested reading for as long as I can remember.
More important to this posting
is the page that outlines misconceptions about what BEE-L is and
what BEE-L is not. "Dispelling Common Misconceptions About BEE-L"
can be found at
http://www.honeybeeworld.com/bee-l/misconceptions.htm and
I urge all subscribers to go there and read it.
I will open up BEE-L for the
remainder of the weekend for any and all comments. I will weigh all
input, although I've considered for years what I want BEE-L to be
and I'll state right now that I doubt I will be impacted much by
objections that may be raised this weekend. There have been
discussions over the years, lists have splintered off in protest,
and today there are more lists than I have the time to monitor, and
I understand soon there will be another one. So be it. As of
midnight Sunday night, Monday morning I will begin to moderate BEE-L
as described at honeybeeworld.com. Thereafter, any objections
regarding the job I do will be unwelcome in my mailbox. If this is
not to the liking of subscribers, there are other lists wher you can
participate and other list owners who you can abuse.
I apologize for the tone of
this post and offer in advance my apologies to BEE-L fans, be they
active contributors or silent contributors.
Sincerely, Aaron Morris
******************************************************
* * Search the BEE-L archives at: * *
http://listserv.albany.edu:8080/cgi-bin/wa?S1=bee-l
* ******************************************************* |
Well, I have to admit that I
have been leaning pretty hard on my friend, and have been feeling pretty bad
about it. I know it has been straining our friendship. The problem is
that he is too nice a guy and has trouble not seeing everyone's point of
view. People take advantage of that and he is flooded by complaints by
the abusers who are not getting their way. I have been a
major PITA lately, so I hope I don't fall in this class. My excuse is
that I was here a long time, was a moderator a long time, wrote and host the
BEE-L FAQ pages, and would like to see the ideals there enforced. Lame
excuse? Worth sacrificing a friendship over? Dunno. Hope that is not
the result. I've been feely grumpy lately and am not in the mood to
take any prisoners.
When I was at Disneyland, I saw lots of new-looking
sweatshirts with "Grumpy" on them in big letters. (After one of the
Seven Dwarfs). I wondered why I didn't see any saying, "Dopey".
At the same time as many new and
fresh faces have shown up on BEE-L, many of
the sorts of people most useful to lists like this, and for which BEE-L was
originally formed -- researchers, extension people, and the like -- usually do not make a fuss, but tend to simply go away
and find quieter places with more informed, discreet and polite company,
when faced with the type of things that happen in many public forums. There
are exceptions and and people like Peter fight valiantly to raise the
content level and keep discussions factual.
Edmund Burke said, "All that is
required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing". We are
not talking evil here, but we are talking ignorance, and they are closely
related. Beekeeping has always been a magnet for snake-oil people, and
quite a bit of the older literature is pretty shaky. With faith-based
beekeeping, using selected and interpreted old material as gospel, and
superstitions like "Housel positioning", we are looking at the antithesis of
science and diversity, and an attempt to draw us all into a new beekeeping
dark ages. IMO, anyhow.
Those professionals who leave
ultimately tend to congregate in private spaces where participation may be
by invitation only (often after recommendation by a respected member) and
where the rules are clear. Offenders are warned once if the
transgression is minor or simply banned for any major breach. Or they
may congregate on lists maintained by professional societies to which they
belong. Many or some may monitor BEE-L and the articles on BEE-L -- typically
the best, the novel, and the most atrocious -- are widely forwarded on those
lists, so we know researchers and extension people read at least some
of BEE-L, but
many are forbidden by their employers, or by their own sense of
self-preservation, to post on BEE-L due to indiscreet attacks on those that
innocently stuck their necks out in the past, and on other researchers --
based on unfounded rumour and misreading of facts.
For the record, I saw that happening and did my
best to stop it, but was powerless, since moderation is a parallel process
on BEE-L and any one moderator can OK any given post, even if deleted by
another. Interestingly, we have had a discussion on BEE-L recently about
something similar on Wikipedia, where the worst is driving out the best.
In the Wikipedia case, allegedly, and somewhat unbelievably, one person who
has no hands-on knowledge is declaring himslf to be the expert and deleting
material from the very people who are actively researching CCD..
For the record, I am not, and have not been a
moderator on BEE-L for some time.
We will see how the owner decides. I will
stay out of it, other than writing my comments here. If he does decide
to rule with an iron hand, then I will consider contributing again. As
for my list, I can set up several, or convert the current one to a "BEE-L
backchannel" where all the gripes and rejected posts can be directed.
It would be sort of like alt.flame, I think.
Sort of a Hell that it is fun to look in on one or twice, but a place you
would not really want to spend time in, unless pain was your fetish. I can
already predict several who would be regulars there.
alt.flame is a classic group on USENET. Or how about
alt.pave.the.earth? I see
sci.agriculture.beekeeping
is still running strong, and I saw a post by Adam Finkelstein! (the
founder of s.a.b), but not a lot of traffic. If anyone has a
really good free public USENET server, please let me know. Some
servers have limited feed on less popular groups.
I can also just drop my list
entirely, if BEE-L actually does decide to raise the bar, unless there turns out
to be a group who want a private offshoot of BEE-L for undisturbed special
discussion, like the Special Interest Groups (SIGs) at American Beekeeping
Federation (ABF) meetings. I set up a list for queen breeders after the
last Niagara Falls joint meeting in 2002, but it never got any significant
traffic.
Enough about BEE-L. I have
been a little obsessive about the matter, but that is how I am. When I
decide to do something, I do it.
Now I'm done, I hope, and I'm off
for a walk on the beach and time in the park with the kids.
It is Black Friday, but I am not
into that.
* *
* * * *
*
This has been a long segment in the
diary, and I congratulate anybody who has made it this far. I write to
clarify my own thoughts and feelings, but am assured that others read and enjoy
these pages. I never tire of hearing about readers and their opinions, so
please drop me a line with your comments, or to debate and point out the error
of my ways.
Saturday, November
29th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
What difference a day makes.
BEE-L rocks since Aaron lowered the boom... and raised the bar. There have been many good posts.
The quotes could be trimmed a bit better, but the content has improved -- vastly,
and the preponderance of members coming out of the woodwork are calling for
continued and tighter moderation. Others, including some offenders, are
silent.
I was totally delighted with the
following post: It's in Spanish, with Babelfish translation (enhanced by
my corrections) to the right. Juanse says it all, and gets first prize, although
others come very close. (The translation is a work in progress, and has not yet
been approved by Juanse).
So far, I give it First Prize.
Gavin gets a close second. (Further down below)
The original from
Juanse
Aaron
En vista que ahora podemos
escribir libremente, lo haré en español para mejor expresarme en mi
lengua materna. Escribir en ingles es un gran esfuerzo.
Antes de comenzar a escribir en
Bee-l me tome casi dos años para leerme todos y cada uno de los
correos históricos a través del acceso en honeybeeworld.com.
Para mi aprendizaje como
apicultor la lectura de esos mensajes fue de muchisima utilidad, por
no decir de vital importancia. Luego comence timidamente a escribir,
al comienzo con preguntas de principiante, hoy escribo con lo que
considero son aportes desde esta humilde trinchera en el sur de
Chile.
Lo más importante es que
encontré amigos. Pude viajar a Australia gracias a que conoci a
través de la Bee-l a Peter Detchon. He tenido el privilegio de
contar con la valiosa ayuda de Randy Oliver, a quien hace años atrás
le hice ver la importancia de la nosemosis, a quién gratamente he
servido de traductor con los investigadores españoles y que con
creces a demostrado lo que vale, como persona, como cientifico y
como renacentista. He descubierto a Peter Borst, quién trabajo en
Chile hace años y me ha ayudado mucho con sus vínculos
bibliotecarios. He gozado los aportes de Allen Dick (con su
sugestivo apellido) y su formidable honeybeeworld. Porque no
mencionar a Trevor Weatherhead y sus consejos en la cria de reinas y
los intercambios con Irwin Harlton respecto del precio de la miel.
Son muchos a los que no menciono. En fin, a través de la bee-l me
siento cerca del conocimiento de punta y de la experiencia de muchos
años de otros colegas en otras latitudes. Gracias Aaron, gracias
Bee-L, gracias a todos y cada uno de los que escriben y aportan.
Como decimos en Chile: Aaron no
te mueras nunca!! Bee-L no te mueras nunca!!
Entiendo Aaron, que estes
agotado con muchos de nosotros cuando la conversación se centra en
las declaraciones insidiosas de Jim o en el agote de las celdas
pequeñas de Dee o en el sabelotodo Bob. Más te entiendo cuando
muchos nos enfrascamos contra ellos.
Lo que no quiero ni imaginar es
la cantidad de mails que no vemos, las conversaciones que moderas y
tratas de corregir para que cumplan las pautas de la lista. Por
experiencia personal he recibido un par de mail de vuelta, desde tu
lado, porque no cumplia la bee-l-tiquete, comentarios que realmente
aprecie por su respeto y precisión, también porque me ayudaron a
perfeccionar mi ingles.
Por favor, no dejes de moderar,
no dejes a la bee-l, no nos dejes a nosotros, los fieles seguidores
de esta fuente de información.
A los que inchan las pelotas,
por favor pongánse en el lugar de Aaron y en el de todos los que
leemos la lista y no estamos ni ahí con sus precarios aportes.
Si alguna vez vienes a Chile
Aaron, no dudes en contactarme. Mi casa es tu casa.
Con aprecio y apoyo desde
Chile, te deseo que descanses de nosotros este fin de semana y
vuelvas recargado este lunes.
-- Juanse Barros J. APIZUR S.A.
Carrera 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310
http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com |
The translation
Aaron
In view that now we can
write freely I will write in Spanish better to express myself -- in my maternal language.
To write in English is a
great effort. Before beginning to write on Bee-l it took almost two
years for me to read each and every one of the historical archives
through access via honeybeeworld.com. [link to the the U at A
server - ed.]
For my learning as
beekeeper, the reading of those messages was of great usefulness,
even vitally important. Soon I began timidly to write, at the start
with beginning questions; today I write what I consider to be
contributions from this humble valley in the south of Chile.
Most important it is than I
found friends. I could travel to Australia thanks to the fact that I
know Peter Detchon through Bee-l. I have had the privilege to report
on the valuable aid of Randy Oliver: that years ago back I made him
see the importance of the nosemosis, and for whom pleasingly I have
served as translator with the Spanish investigators and who fully to
demonstrated what it costs, like person, scientist and Renaissance
Man. I am beholden to Peter Borst, who worked in Chile for
years and has been helping greatly with his librarian
connections. I have enjoyed the contributions of Allen Dick (with
his suggestive last name) and his formidable honeybeeworld. I should
also mention Trevor Weatherhead and his advice in the rearing of
queens and the interchanges with Irwin Harlton with respect to the
price of the honey. There are many I do not mention. In short,
through bee-l I feel near the knowledge of end and the experience of
many years of other colleagues in other latitudes. Aaron thanks,
Bee-L thanks, thanks to those who write and contribute.
Like decimos (a coin?) in Chile: Aaron
you never die! Bee-L you never die!
I understand Aaron, that you
are tired, as are many of us when conversation concentrates in the
insidious declarations of Jim or in the tiring small cell talk from
Dee or in sabelotodo (know-it-all) Bob. I understand [your
weariness] when many of us were involved against them.
What I do not want to
imagine is the amount of mails that we do not see, and the
conversations that you moderate and try to correct so that they
fulfill you rule of the list. By personal experience I have received
several emails returned from your side, because they did not comply
with bee-l-tiquete -- commentaries that I really appreciate by their
respect and precision, and also because helped a me to perfect my
English.
Please, you do not stop
moderating, do not leave bee-l, and do not leave us, the faithful
following of this source of intelligence.
To that have the balls,
please put [yourself] in the place of Aaron and the one of which we
read the list and we are not there with its precarious
contributions.
If sometime you come to
Chile, Aaron, you do not doubt in contacting to me. My house is your
house.
With esteem and support from
Chile, I wish you that you rest away from us this weekend and you
return recharged on Monday
-- Juanse Mud J. APIZUR S.A.
Race 695 Gorbea - CHILE +56-45-271693 08-3613310
http://apiaraucania.blogspot.com |
| Allen
Thanks for taking the trouble
render Juanse's thoughtful letter into English. Those automatic
translations are sometimes worse than none at all, since they miss
quaint little expressions such as
> To those whose balls are
swollen, please put yourself in Aaron's place and that of us, who
read the list and are not with you and your dubious contributions.
Also, "Peter Borst, who worked
in Chile for years" is wrong; it was years ago, but only for six
months. But long enough to fall in love with one of the most
beautiful countries on the planet. If you like California, you'll
love Chile!
I would render his final
sentence as
> With appreciation and support
from Chile, I wish you a break from us this weekend and hope you
return recharged this Monday.
* * *
Y a ti, Juanse, que tenga una
buena primavera mientras estamos congelandonos los culos.
Tu amigo, Pedro |
Looks to me to be a strong vote to
raise the bar. I hope, probably in vain, that we will some day have a
forum so respectable and so well managed that more of the scientists who now
only lurk will have the courage to post again without fear of being made a
target or wading through, rude, ignorant remarks and attacks on "The
Establishment".
|
I don't know
the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please
everybody.
Bill Cosby (1937 - ) |
Of course, I have to applaud those
few scientists and extension people who currently post for their bravery and
commitment. I notice that they are either independent operators, or working for
non-US Federal or State government employers. At one time, we had a good deal of
involvement from the scientific crowd, but over time, they have drifted away.
If we write them, they contribute material we can post, but seldom if ever is
there any direct posting from that direction anymore. Sometimes, I get
emails from some them when they come across something I wrote on BEE-L that is
of interest to them, and I gather that either they were lurking, or that
something was forwarded.
OK... Time out. I
have to tell you what great bunch the USDA people are. They are not
stuffed shirts, Sure, they went to school far longer than most of us
cared to, or could manage to afford, BUT, they are educated, smart, caring,
and just like you and me, and they get just as much dirt under their
fingernails.
People are known by the
company they keep, and for those who make a career of science at
institutions, been seen too often or seeming too comfortable in the company
of indiscreet, abusive and/or deluded people can limit one's future job
prospects. All the scientists I know tend to be very discreet in
public, and if they let their hair down and speculate or hypothesize a bit
in private, which they do, they really do not want to be quoted as if these
thoughts were their actual opinions or, even worse, those of their
employers.
Some BEE-L members are very
literal-minded and cannot tell the difference between hypothecation and
opinion, and we have had some uncomfortable moments on the list.
Also some matters are quite
subtle, and require understanding of technical terms. The uneducated can get
the wrong idea and put innocent researchers into hot water, by
mis-interpreting words that have precise scientific meaning.
|
067687 |
Re: Imitating Without Understanding |
|
067688 |
Re: Imitating Without Understanding |
Most of the posts are pretty good,
and some have learned to use their email software and quote properly, using the
standard method. Dee has not, and probably never will. There are a few
others who do similarly, and it makes it hard to tell who is saying what.
She stills writes gobbledegook as if it meant something, and sometimes it
appears to, a bit anyhow, but at other times, I wonder... She has some good ideas, but I
think most of us have heard them both too many times. I am hoping that
when moderation raises the bar, she will be the first to get a tune-up.
She can write good English when she wants to.
Another point that is seldom
considered is that in some forums topics are banned temporarily or permanently
if they become disruptive or deflect the intent of the forum. That has
seldom been done on BEE-L, but I think it is high time that small cell, "wholebee"
and some other nebulous topics are truncated for the sake of the list.
Here is Gavin's:
Bee-L just got its juju back.
We're back to Informed posts and to posts that firmly, directly,
accurately and politely challenge the challenge-worthy without
long-winded confusion, point-scoring and diatribes.
Aaron: many many thanks for
that. Bee-L is import to us. It needs a strong custodian with that
strong view of what the list should be and what the list needs. Be
firm, trust in your own judgement, we're with you!
You said somewhere that 95% of
posts are approved. For me, that is too high. People should see that
only the highest quality posts get through. We should *expect* that
many of our posts are rejected, failing to make the grade. In some
ways, it is like publishing in a scientific journal - you don't
expect the editor to think every contribution worthwhile. You have
to be saying something interesting, justifiable, appropriate,
well-presented, relevant, polite and reasonably novel. If you fail,
you try harder next time.
It saddens me that you are
getting grief behind the scenes. Whoever they are, they've got it
wrong. The referee is always right even if his interpretation of the
rules at one particular infringement is debateable. In the sports I
watch, arguing with the referee gets you a yellow card. Persist with
it and you get a red and are removed from the field of play,
sometimes for weeks. You might try that if you like.
And as for talk of
splinter-lists - great! Bee-L is and always will be the most
respected in cyberland. If a few individuals (and I've no idea who
you are talking about) decide to go off in the huff, great! Bee-L
will probably be better without them.
best wishes
Gavin |
Sunday, November
30th, 2008
Novembers past:
2005,
2004,
2003,
2002,
2001,
2000,
1999
Honey Bee World Forum
|
Ooops.
Aaron said he turned off NOREVIEW.
Now you know what I REALLY think.
As if you didn't already. <grins>
Excessive quotes to follow:
---
> Excuse me. Did I *actually* see this in BEE-L?
>
>> Peter,
>> You are so funny, that you cannot see alignment size wise with
real world
>> and man's/your artificial folly, but then that is what gives you
job
>> security temporarily as a bee inspector for those great LC bees
that
>> choak seem so CCD healthy!!!!.
>
> I NEED a new drug. |
Well, I posted on BEE-L.
Accidentally. Aaron and I were chatting and I somehow understood him to
say that he was putting the list back on moderation and going to bed.
I guess he didn't. Anyhow, a
bit later, I noticed a particularly gratuitous post (personal, sly, bad grammar
and spelling -- sounding stoned?) and I replied to the list address, assuming
Aaron would get it and not pass it on.
I guess that moderation was NOT on,
and my comment went to the list, so I sent an explanation (right).
Then, this morning I looked over the
chat, and could not see where I got the idea that the list was back on REVIEW.
Oh well.
So then I decided that I might as
well post a bit, so I posted the translation of Juanse's message.
Here is another good comment on
raising the bar. I especially agree with the need for some judicious
quoting. The reason for limiting quotes is not storage, but rather the
problem that excessive quotes cause when searching the archives.
|
067701 |
Re: Raising the bar |
|
067703 |
Re: Imitating Without Understanding |
|
067707 |
Re: Raising the bar |
|
067709 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067710 |
Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in
feeder |
|
067713 |
Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in
feeder |
|
067715 |
Re: neonicotinoids (was Leadership ) |
|
067721 |
Re: Nosema Ceranae in US...dead bees in
feeder |
|
067729 |
Re: News from Nebraska |
|
067741 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067743 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
067745 |
Re: A Sustainable Commercial Model? |
|
Hmmm. I'm writing this in SharePoint Designer inside a virtual
machine running on my laptop. I usually use FrontPage, and
have since the first GUI HTML writers came out. I can hand
code, but why do it? |
Good evening, Aaron -
Add mine to the many voices expressing support for the work you do
and for the benefits of moderation on the BEE-L list. I'm sorry that
you're taking flak. You do not deserve it.
I have to admit, though, that I'm a bit surprised to hear that
you're getting abuse. As a reader, it's not apparent who is upset
with you or why. Not knowing what kinds of posts are getting
rejected, I don't know that the rest of us can really offer useful
opinions about what should be changed. Can you give us a synopsis of
the nature of the complaints that you received?
Mike Rossander
P.S.
Having said all that, if I had one wish for a change to BEE-L, it
would only be to ask you to check again with the system
administrators to see if they still care about the rule against
"excessive" quotes. With the dramatic reductions in the cost of
electronic memory and the improved archiving techniques, most
companies I work with have abandoned their "size control" rules. The
costs to usability are no longer justified by the systems savings. I
have to think that the folks at Albany are seeing the same trends.
As I think I've said before, the problem for me is that some
participants at BEE-L feel that they must comply with the rule so
strictly that
they slash out _all_ the context, making their reply very difficult
for the rest of us to
understand and to place back into the proper order. Since some
people respond to posts made days ago, saving the messages or even
using the web feed is not a guaranteed solution.
That's really a nit, though. I wish the rule about quotes were a
little looser. I can't think of anything else to ask for and
definitely do not want you to loosen the guidelines about civility,
relevance, staying fact-based, etc. Thanks for giving us the
opportunity to offer our opinions about the functioning of the list
itself.
By the way, are you the only moderator? The "What is BEE-L" page
implies that there are multiple moderators but you seem to be the
only one we ever hear from. Are the guidelines out of date? Would it
take some of the stress off you if the list had several moderators?
Thanks again. |
Hmmm. I'm writing this in SharePoint Designer inside a virtual machine
running on my laptop. I usually use FrontPage, and have since the first GUI
HTML writers came out. I can hand code, but why do it?
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Left panel on?
Yes
|
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